SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to the Boundless Bible. My name is David Shapiro. Hey, I'm Javi Marquez. And I'm Jason Holloway. So here's the tension. There is the Old Testament God that people think is wrathful and he might be. And then there's the New Testament God that people say is loving and he might be. The tension becomes is the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament appearing to be different, one showing correction, the other showing wrath and punishment. And I want to start diving into this conversation by just looking at the Old Testament God and all the things that people are saying that happened to have happened, such as, hey, you have Moses who did everything right for God. He was a prophet. He was the one who went to Egypt, you know, under his own refusal. He still went and listened to God, was obedient, freed the Israelites, went into the desert, and then one moment he makes a mistake, out of frustration, strikes a rock instead of speaking towards it, and God punishes him by he is no longer ever able to reach the promised land. That seems really, you know, just mean and wrathful. And I think that there is something there about what people think about God in the Old Testament.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

Totally. I mean, look at how many things there are in the Old Testament that are hard to, you know, hard to rectify with this New Testament God. You have the flood, you have Sodom and Gomorrah, maybe a little bit more understandable that one, but um, you know, you have the uh I forget who it was, but they, you know, God told them when they were taking over the city that to kill everybody in the in the city, including the men, women, and the and the Canaanites. And you know, there's there's some portraits of God in the Old Testament which make him very wrathful, very angry, very retributive. Is that what the word? Uh, you know, he and you know, he he calls for retribution, but it's it's pretty harsh retribution. And and you know, I know I myself even sometimes am reading the Bible in the Old Testament, I'm like, ouch, that's a that's a harsh, uh, it's a harsh reality to see in the God who himself says, I never change. So if you never change, how can I rectify this Old Testament God with with New Testament God? So a lot of situations.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yeah, I mean, you even mentioning Moses from the beginning and striking the rock, the other thing that happened is in the time of the you know, of Moses and the Exodus, is they were disobeying God and God allowed snakes, venomous snakes, to go and bite them and kill them. So now it's not even just retribution against another city or another town. This is their people, the chosen people who God is punishing with being killed and by venomous snakes. So there is definitely just the old testament is filled with confusing stories of a wrathful God, and and you know, it's hard sometimes to justify, and and that's what we try to do all the time is justify God. But God in the Old Testament seems to be a little mean.

SPEAKER_03 3:07

Yeah. I I might even, you know, now now might be a good time to stop and say, you know, for for anybody listening to this, is you know, we're going to be tackling some pretty complicated and complex subjects here. And if you don't do it the right way, it can kind of push you away as opposed to drawing you nearer. And I think there's this, you know, when David talks about tension, I think learning to hold tension without dismissing the subject is an important, or even going the opposite direction of the subject is an important thing. My I myself have had to learn it over the years is, you know, when when something doesn't make sense, it's not because it's wrong, it's because I don't fully understand it yet. And so I've had to hold things and kind of put these subjects that I don't fully understand yet on a on a on its own shelf on the bookshelf and say, this is not my final answer, this is not my final understanding, but it's something that I'm I'm gonna allow myself to grapple with and wrestle with and to eventually, you know, understand in God's time. But so I think that's kind of an important maybe disclaimer to start out with because this is some complicated stuff, guys.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Yeah, I mean, listen, just mentioning Moses and comparing to what you just said, you know, when you look at Moses striking the rock, we look at it as, hey, he made one mistake, how could he not go into the promised land? But when you look at that situation, he was representing God. God said, Listen, I want you to speak to the rock. At this point, all the miracles were done through Moses. The people were looking at Moses as this great prophet, as this representative of God. And so when he spoke harshly to the people and struck the rock, God is upset. He's saying, Hey, you're representing me falsely. You're making them think that I'm the one who told you to yell at them and strike the rock, and that's not how I want to behave. So he's actually saying, You're you're portraying me too cruelly. And the punishment was you're not going to go into the promised land. You have to obey because you're representing me directly. And so I think, yes, you're right. Situations you you can have attention and then learn about it and go, okay, I can understand. That's not a cruel God. That's a God who actually says I don't want to be portrayed cruelly. And and there is a consequence. And I think that sometimes consequences make everybody uncomfortable. I mean, listen, I when I give criticism at work, I feel uncomfortable about it. Nobody loves that that tension. Yeah. I know that sometimes when we talk about this subject, you talk about how man had done things to initiate God's wrath in the Old Testament.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Yeah. Yeah, we see that. We see a lot of things. You know, we talk about the flood story, right? How he wipes out a whole nation, like pretty much everybody on earth, it sounds like. You know, there's there's that, there's the the ex the exodus of uh, well, not really the exodus, but like the exile, the of the Israelites, right? Going to Babylon and being slaves again. You know, there's stuff like that that that happens in the Old Testament is like, why I thought these are supposed to be your your children, the chosen ones, right? There's a lot of things that happened in the Old Testament that we could look at and go, God is wrathful. God is not a loving God and and and he didn't do things that we feel is right, right? He he seems like a cruel or a bad judge of character at times, you know. But you know, it's it's something that if if you take it out of context, it could look that way. And I think that's where we I'm hoping we got into today, just the context of why certain things might look a certain way, but God is acting out something far beyond that what we could see, you know. Because I believe the the God is a God of slow to anger, and he is patient, and most of all, what we believe as Christians is he's graceful.

unknown 6:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

I mean, I you're actually going over Psalm Psalm 103, by the way, just that's the one you just said is you know, he's slow to anger, but he does not treat us as our sins deserve. And that's an interesting, you know, that's great reason to again defend him, is the grace that he's showing. But uh I just wanted to point out that that's Psalm 103 that you're bringing up, and great Psalm, but that is where he's saying he's slow to anger, but and he is not punishing us for the sins as we deserve. So I'm sorry, Jason, I cut you off.

SPEAKER_03 7:13

But no, no, it's I mean, you're you're right. I mean, that's look, I think I think the biggest question on the table is is the old testament God the same as the new testament god? Has he changed? Right? And and Javi, I think you're I think you're dead on with the idea of the Old Testament, there is some harsh retribution, there is some harsh punishment, but to be fair, they earned it. They they weren't it wasn't punishment, it was consequences. Like it are they harsh consequences? Yes. But does anybody who's been alive for any amount of time think that all consequences are easy peasy and you know, little slaps on the wrist? No, I mean there's there are significant consequences to significant actions. And sometimes those consequences, you know, seem balanced, sometimes they seem unbalanced, but they but they happen. We live in this world, we know what happens. So I don't know, I think I think that there's this level of early man did early things without early understanding, right? And so God needed to make sure very clearly and very explicitly that what you just did is wrong. You know, people didn't come on this earth with a guidebook, and they didn't come on the earth with uh, you know, with a a playbook of how to live. And so they were just doing what they did. I mean, look at you know, the first thing that happened out of the Garden of Eden was murder. Like that, that that's because that's the way that our hearts are built. Our hearts are built to be selfish, our hearts are built to be for ourselves and not for others. And so, you know, they they killed. And then he said, nope, big slap big slap. Yeah, you know, big slap. Shouldn't don't, no more killing, no more killing, as he's like wagging his finger, you know, at him. And so, you know, they they learned a lesson from it. And as time goes on and society gets more structured and culture gets more structured, and people are following the society of themselves and not the society of God, God needs to step in and do stuff. That's where Sodom and Gomorrah comes in.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

I mean, when you think about like the when you think about like history sometimes, right? Even torture or like judgment on on their people, right? You steal, they chop your hand off and stuff like that. Like I wouldn't want to live in a society like that. Like that's what they thought was an eye for an eye. You know, that's that's where the term comes from, right? And you know, that's that's harsh. And I think not to give it not to give it reason for what happened back then, but I think to give it context. And as we learn when we read the Bible, learning and reading from context and cultural understanding and what's happening here, we can start, we can start seeing that God is a God of of not wrath, but a God that is that's slow to anger, going back to that, really.

unknown 9:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Well, I also think that you know we we all know that if you're driving past an accident, everybody slows down. Yeah, yeah. People like to point at the negative. Right. And I think when we look at it, we go, yes, we have the flood story, we have Sodom and Gomorrah, we have the Canaanites, we have the Israelites in the desert, we have all these things. But as you just brought up, Jason, you know, in in Genesis, we go right to, you know, who we are and the murder and all that. But if you go before that, you have Adam and Eve, who God literally said, if you do this, you'll die right now.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

And they didn't. They brought sin into the world, but even then, you have God who's showing mercy saying, Hey, I'm giving you the ultimate, don't do this. You do it, and I'm still not gonna do that. I still have patience. We focus on the negative, we focus on the car accidents versus those moments that we we glaze over and go, Wait, here's a moment where God is being loving and patient and saying, Hey, this is what it requires, and I'm not gonna do that to you. Speaking of glaze over, it makes me think of Homer Simpson. Don't Krispy Kreme.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

Yeah, crispy cream. No, like you said you said that was over that humble.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Oops, like, dude, you know, he just literally told you you're you're walking with God. And not to say that we wouldn't do the same, but like, yeah, you're you're right. I love that you point that out, David. I think that's all what we did. That's not what God did, right? God didn't Cain. I mean Abel, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:18

That's what we do now.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Or Cain is Abel, Abel.

SPEAKER_03 11:21

Cain, yeah, Cain killed Abel. Yeah. But the look, I the other thing is when we went into the when we went to the wilderness, you know, people were complaining about it, and he gave water and he gave mana, and he gave, you know, and he gave life for 40 years, so you know, and and kept them alive during this time to get to the promised land. I mean, there was there's there's there's just as much grace as there is retribution. And and and to that point, I mean, I think if you ask the if for for me, if you start asking the question, is it the same God? People, you know, there's actually this other conversation of, you know, does God change, right? And and I think the answer is his nature does not, but his outcome or his his actions can change. And they're they change based on your obedience. They they change based on your uh you know, discipline and your ability to follow through with what he's asking you to do. I mean, there's even well, I mean, there's even a time when when they're in the when they're in the wilderness that that the people are being bad, and God's like, I'm gonna smite all of them. And Moses is like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Please don't do that. Like, so there's there's examples of God actually changing his mind. And there's times when he says, you know, what you are, and and I think David said it previously, you are my people, you are my chosen people, and I will protect you always. But you're gonna go into, and actually I think it was Javi, but you're gonna go into exile because you earned it, because you've spent generations not paying attention to me. I've given you all the pop, the prob probability, possibility, and potential to to to do what was right, and you haven't done it. You have to learn a lesson. You're going into exile, you're going into timeout, and so they've gone into timeout, but there's but he eventually brings them out of timeout and he says, Have you learned your lesson yet? And they go, Yes, daddy, I have, and I'm good. And then they do it again at 400 years later.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

But um, yeah, it's but let's compare and contrast. Yeah, but you know, you have you you have this old testament, and and it is impossible to say that there are not wrathful moments, whether they are sure disciplinary actions or not. This is something that we go, woo, man. Okay, you killed all of Earth except for Noah and his family. Your chosen people are being killed by snakes. You are telling a people to annihilate an entire other nation, right? It it's there, but now let's compare and contrast to the New Testament because that question of is this the same God? Is this a God that changes his mind? Is this you know a different God of the New Testament than new than the Old Testament? And in the New Testament, we do see Jesus who is loving and loving your neighbors and loving everybody, and and it just does seem like, hey, if I'm gonna follow a God, I'm gonna follow this New Testament one because he just seems like somebody I want to hang out with and be a buddy with. The the father, he's a little, he's a little rough. That's funny.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Well, when you when you mention going back to what you said about the car accident and you and you stop by and you start nitpicking what happened, it's the same thing. We're nitpicking that he is just loving and caring and everybody needs to kumban ya. You know, like that's we see that, but that's not all of Jesus Christ, right? We also see a you know, a God of Jesus being, you know, not liking certain things that's happening in the temple and being angry at that, you know, and really, you know, saying he talks about hell a lot, right? And just kind of the the gnashing of teeth and what it's gonna be like. Like he talks about a lot of that. So there is this throws a table. He throws a table. He throws a table in the yeah, in the temple, yeah. So we also see that too. We're nitpicking, right? We're nitpicking, only see him healing people. We could we could also come to that conclusion that he is only loving.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Yeah, I'll challenge you though. So is flipping a table and talking about hell the same as killing hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people, where somebody can go, hey, I understand that God is angry with the Pharisee, I understand he's flipping a table, but it seems like it's a much different punishment for them than there was in the old testament. So can we really compare flipping a table with a flood? Yes.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

And I'll tell you why. Okay. Yeah. Because Jesus himself wasn't the giver of the consequence, right? He himself, I mean, he is God, but he himself was not the, was not the giver in the sense that God was, you know, he wasn't making a storm brew over time. He wasn't storm from the X-Men and he wasn't making it happen, and he wasn't, you know, called directly as a human, as a physical being, right? But he does talk a lot in the New Testament about what will happen to you. Like he it's see, like the Old Testament is actually kind of God speaking to the people and the people showing you this is what happened when you did this, or even this is what I will do when you do this. It was the up, it was the voice of God speaking and saying what he is. The New Testament is mostly Paul's writings, or you know, mostly the writings from the apostles about what would happen, what could happen. It's the style of writing itself that makes it seem less aggressive and less wrathful. But the the whole New Testament still has plenty of things that say, uh, you know, what does it say? You know, um, better better would he be who was thrown to the bottom of the sea with a with a uh choker around his neck, a cement brick around his neck, than the person who, you know, misleads a child, something like that. That's pretty harsh. I think that's pretty harsh, right? And but it's the difference about speaking to the consequence in the New Testament and speaking in the context of the consequence, which is what happens in the Old Testament. So, but Jesus talks about it too. I mean, you know, Jesus talks about the fact that you're gonna burn in, you know, that you're you're gonna burn in a fiery, I don't know if Jesus says that, but somebody in the in the New Testament talks about that. I think there's just as much in there. It's just it's it's from a different context, and so it comes across in a different way.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

Or we I I I like that I agree. Yeah, go ahead, Dave. No, no, no, go, go, go. No, I'm gonna say, is it is it also maybe that everything we're taking from everything we've talked about right now, it's all what we got from the Bible, too, right? So, like, you know, the Bible talks more explicitly on the different nations that's happen with the things that's happening to the Israelites rather than the New Testament is all that things happening around Jesus Christ. So who who are we to know? I mean, we could tell by history that what's happening around the nations around that, that maybe that that there is wrath that's happening, right? There is a shutting down of nations that use children as sacrifice, right? There's there's we see after the Romans get what they get, after Jesus Christ, you know, obviously after Jesus Christ dies and all that stuff, and then their occupation there around inside like their nation, their empire starts to fall and crumble, and they use you know, God uses different nations to to do that, to rectify, you know, certain things like that. So I say that only to say, like, we what we're reading from is what we get from the Bible, and then we make judgment off of that, but we don't know what's happening outside of that from the Bible. I mean, we do know through history, but I don't know if that matters, but I'm thinking, I'm sorry, let's not forget Revelation, that's also New Testament.

SPEAKER_03 18:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

So I'm I'm glad you guys said that. And I was gonna play devil's advocate, but you you you beat me to it. I don't think you're allowed to play. I don't think you're allowed to play that on here. But but I think yes, what you're saying, Javi, is true, but but again, if I'm going just Bible, if if I'm reading the Bible and I look at Old Testament, New Testament, because during the Old Testament, there were also historical things happening that aren't written about. So if I just compare apples to apples, then then I challenge that. And the same thing, Jason, before you said Revelation, I was gonna challenge you as well, just on the fact that even in all of the different conversations, the different contexts, and the different writers, it still does seem as though the Old Testament God is being written historically of all these things that are happening that are truly cruel. But you're bringing up Revelation and now you're hitting kind of, I agree with you guys. I'm just like I said, playing devil's advocate on purpose.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Um before you get there, maybe can I say, and I was thinking about this now, but as we're talking, maybe I'm off here, but can we compare can we compare this to like a child? Right? Can we compare what's happening in the Old Testament like a child? You don't treat your child the same way you would treat them as they grow older, right? The discipline, the the the shaping of going, no, no, get into your room, time out, you know, um, I grew up, you know, I got I got a couple of spanking, you know, like stuff like that. So I wonder if that shapes what it is. And then now that you're, you know, later on as society grows, there is a different way to approach judgment in that way. And now is more character, is more like, you know, I really feel like Jesus Christ came for that more initially, like the one person, so rather than, you know, that that spans out to the nations rather than talking to the nations of of it. So that's like that's the second of three.

SPEAKER_03 20:16

That's the second of three ways I see this. That's the second of three ways I see this. I mean, the the second one, and and I'm trying to figure out how we reorder this because I think I I I have three very distinct arguments. I wonder if I want to.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Okay. Okay. Yeah, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 20:28

I mean, what one is the one that you're having right now, David. Maybe we finish that one and we go back to this because I think the the you know the maturity of the human race itself has something to do with that as well. But let's go let's go back to that. David, I want you to finish your point first and then we'll go back to that. Just remind me to go back to that.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Well, well, no, I I think that uh the first point of being, yes, revelation is there. And when you look at revelation language, this is very scary stuff. So this goes back to old testament, quote unquote type of language, where you go, this is the same God.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

But then I I look at this is absolutely what you're talking about, Revelation.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Yeah, yeah, really New Testament, but then I look at the punishment of Jesus Christ. When you look at what the punishment of Jesus was and what he went through, the I mean, if you're trying to compare the Old Testament father with the New Testament father, there are sometimes consequences, and we talked about that consequences that happen. When I look at what what Jesus had to go through, be it for us, that to me is absolutely horrendous to read. If anybody has watched the movie Passion of the Christ, I don't know if there's a dry eye in the movie theater. This is is really, really hard to watch and to read.

SPEAKER_03 21:42

So can I see if I'm hearing what you're saying correctly? Yeah. Yep. Are you saying Old Testament God wrathful to humans because there was no scapegoat for the humans and they had to take it themselves? And then Jesus comes along, and Jesus is the recipient of all. All major wrath for humankind moving forward, which is why man man doesn't get the wrath he used to get. We still have regular everyday consequences to the things that we do, but we don't get the we don't get the lashes, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

The wrath that we deserve. Is that what you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 22:18

That we deserve. Yeah, he took on all of that. If you talk about all of the wrath that man went through, and and I don't want to belittle what the old testament people went through. Yes, being bitten by snakes and being killed and all the other things are horrendous. When you read about what happened to Jesus, the amount of wrath, all of humanity, all of the sin going into Jesus, to me, I think that it does pose the opposite of the argument of Old Testament, New Testament, God, is this the same? Yeah, it actually does seem that way. And then, like you said, when you comp when you also combine that with Revelation, there is language in the New Testament that mirrors the Old Testament. It does not mean that I agree that God is wrathful and cruel at all. I don't think he is. I think that consequences and things that we do mandate those. But if you look at just the Jewish people and just the Old Testament, they have a tremendous amount of love. They know that God is compassionate and gracious and abounding in love. And these are all the things they talk about in the Old Testament because they see that from him. I just want to, as the first point, I agree with you guys now that I think that it shows that both of the the Old Testament, New Testament God has the capacity for anger and wrath. I love that you said that.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

That's exactly what Paul says, right? I think in Romans 6, right? The wages of sin is death. That was what we deserve. Just like anything else happened in the past, their wages was death. And although we saw it, you know, Jesus came right at the end, right, right, right in the nick of time, at least for us and this later, this letter this later generation, you know, he gave us grace and took the sin for us.

SPEAKER_03 24:05

Look, I mean, I think that I think that's a really strong argument. I think that's a really strong argument. Uh maybe, maybe now's a good time to flip argument, because I think you there's nothing more to say about that. You kind of kind of got that one right there. But you know, the the other one is the argument of the let's call it. Maturity. The the argument, the argument of maturity, right? Like you I I already mentioned Cain and Abel in this episode. And like these are these are the newborn humans who don't know what to do with things and don't know what right or wrong is and don't have any context for that. And to the point where in a few chapters, God has to start over. And yet the heart of man is wicked and they keep screwing up and they're gonna keep doing it. And he even says, The heart of man is wicked, but I but I love you, and I'm gonna keep taking care of you. Like it's just what it is. And but in taking care of us, Javi, you made a perfect example, you know, a child. The child, if you have a child who continues to run towards the stairs, the first time you go, hey, don't run towards the stairs, the second time you go, stop running to the stairs, and the third time they're still running, you go, you have to grab them. And you have to grab them so you keep them from running and tripping down the stairs and falling down. Um but it's it's just a matter of because he was listening to it.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Yeah, I I I actually do I do understand exactly what he was saying. What's funny? He was very he was choppy to us. I'm sure he was very clear to the audience, but he'll he'll come back soon. But I do feel like what he was talking about, and Javi, I think you agree with that as well, which is you know, as a child you have a certain amount of correction, and as you get older, there's a different level of connection. So why don't you talk about it from your per perspective? Javi still with me? Yeah. Okay, why don't you talk about it from your perspective? Just while all Jason comes back, just that same type of level of conversation of you know, different kind of corrections as from a child to adulthood.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Well, unlike you guys, you guys are fathers, I am not. So you would know more than I will. But as a child growing up, I mean, just the shaping of of immaturity, the shaping of you know, of growing up to being, you know, coming of age and stuff like that. I think discipline is big more than ever. Just the watching a father watching over their child and watching the every little move, it's more is more important, I think. And it's it's something that you need to do, I think, as a father to a child, right? And I think I'm grateful for how I was kind of disciplined and and the the re retelling, the re-repeating of like what to do and what's right and what's wrong kind of thing. So I think it it it means so much for a child leaving. Being a man, yeah. Yeah. Oh, Jason, cool. You're back.

SPEAKER_03 26:44

Yeah, look, and and to that, to that same thing, I heard you guys the whole time. So I'm I got lost there, but the we talk about the I you know, I talked about the young kid, the three-year-old, but as as the kid becomes, you know, nine and ten, it gets less, you know, it gets to be less, you know, forceful, right? It becomes more discussion and and and it becomes more logical and it becomes more, you know, direct and reasoning, right? And then by the time you know you get to be old enough, it becomes you know, guidance when the request is asked for. And it becomes, you know, it's it's so it's it's different ages of maturity require different levels of the provider of guidance. And so I think this is another argument to why God seems more harsh in the in the past, is because we were a budding species who didn't have who needed that guidance. And so we had to be more explicit.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

I'm gonna push back a little bit on this. Um, not that I disagree, but I'm just I'm I'm curious at which point do we, why is it that the New Testament is our maturity where the Old Testament is our immaturity, at which point do we get to that point of maturity? Because I can look at the Old Testament and see us making the same mistake over and over and over and over. So if we're if we're talking about, hey, the Old Testament was immaturity, the New Testament is more maturity, at which point do you think that that changed over?

SPEAKER_03 28:05

I don't I don't think that we're the adults yet. I think that we're still the teenagers. I think we still screw up, which is why we keep getting all these bad punishments because we deserve them. But I I think in maybe a couple more thousand years, we're gonna get to the point where we can go, you know, maybe we mature to the point of only needing a little guidance. But I my argument would be we're not there yet.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Some will argue that God is still wrathful. God is still, you know, like, you know, the the the punishment and the wars and the the you know things that are not fair, right? Cancer, right? The the taking of my child at birth and stuff like that. There's still stuff that happens that people still blame God of why, and you're so you know, you're so wrong for that. You're you're you're a wrong judge. I didn't do anything to deserve these things. So I can understand what you're saying, David, on that. I think you you're that's actually a good point. I would argue that wherever God was in the Old Testament and New Testament, that He's the same God. I mean, there's many scriptures that says that says beautiful things about God, that He one of the key things that that I keep reading that it repeats from the Old Testament to the New Testament that his love abounds. His love abounds, abounds, meaning overflowing, is limitless, it's it's it's loyal, it's selfless. You know, so you know, we we read that like in you know, different scriptures and stuff like that. Exodus numbers, all the way to the New Testament, the Philippines. I mean the Philippines, the Philippines. Yeah, you know, they love God back there. Oh, in the Philippines.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

They love God, they love God. Hey, Javi, I think it's really, really important what you just brought up. Like ultra important. The idea of wrath versus really bad stuff happening too. And there are there, man, it's such a fine line. We did an episode, you know, last year about why does God let bad things happen. And while they feel personal to you, many times they are not personal to you at all. I mean, it's it's personal to you because it happens in your life, but it's not God making something happen. And so there are there are things that does, you know, in let's say interfere in or does intervene in, that's the word I'm looking for, intervene in. But we we also live in a world in which He created that was ordered and and free willed, right? There's God created things so that they worked in a certain way, so that flowers, when they, you know, when the pollen leaves the flower, it goes into the flower and it pollinates other flowers. And uh in a world in which uh, you know, if you stand on a cliff and you, you know, try to take an Instagram selfie and you lose your balance because you shouldn't be there in the first place and you fall and you die, that's a consequence. I mean, it's just it, it's it's not that it's not necessarily that the God is making the influencer fall off the off the cliff, right? They just made a very poor decision and that's happening. And so there's so there's this constant balance between the ordered universe and the free will, right? And so some things are gonna happen because of free will. I even have been looking at a lot a lot at it lately. The problem with free will, sometimes it's not only an individual thing. I mean, sometimes it becomes a corporeal or a corporate thing. I mean, look at look at look at the terrible state of our food that is making people sick, and yet at a global level, food is making people sick. God did not do that. God did not make Cheetos. Sorry. You like love Cheetos to make Cheetos. Hey, you know, I know. I'm sorry to bust your bubble down. I always thought we'd present. It I mean, it is heaven. That's a trick from the devil. But look, the you see what I'm saying? Like the look, so so there are things that are gonna happen, and it's very easy, it's very easy to think, oh well, God did this to me. And that's not that's not God's wrath. Does God have wrath? Absolutely. We've already seen it. If we believe that God is an unchanging God, then God does unleash wrath. He is patient enough to let that wrath come when it's time to come, but he does unleash wrath. But we shouldn't attribute all negative things to wrath either. Just a force, just a fine mind.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

No, I I agree. I I just I I started challenging you guys by maturity, immaturity. I I actually have, and I hope this isn't your third point that you you wanted to bring up, but it is, it does have to do with uh it does have to do with with the time of things. And we look at it, we go, okay, the old testament, they seem to have been more immature. By the new testament, they've matured a little bit, whether it's childhood to teenage or childhood to adulthood. For me, what I look at is the Old Testament took place over thousands of years. The New Testament roughly is 70 years. So if I if I just pick and chose a part of the Old Testament, if I go, okay, the reign of Solomon, which was approximately seven years, it was the most peaceful, the most prosperous, the most financially lucrative, the best time for Jewish people. So if I look at that 70 years compared to the New Testament, I would have the flip feeling. I would say, no, this is actually a great God in the Old Testament and a wrathful one in the New Testament. So I think also we have to be very careful when you look at timing. And the reason I asked you guys, yeah, I said, you know, at which point does that turn over? It was me trying to bait you guys, because there's a point very early on in the Old Testament where God is giving them 70 years of almost perfection. Now, of course, as man, we mess it up, but but it is one of those things where I go, at which point do we did we grow up? I I don't know if I agree with the point you guys are making, but I do agree that there are moments of time where we have to go, the old testament God seems more wrathful because he also had thousands of years to work. So we're getting thousands of years of stories versus 70 years of stories. Of course, it's gonna seem less wrathful because he just didn't have enough time for things to unfold.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

Yeah. The unfolding thing, and this is kind of an argument that's forming in my head right now. It's not an argument. We've already said it, and I said it out loud, but it's the one that's kind of like congealing with me that's probably gonna stick the longest. If you look at the Old Testament, it's about past tense. The Old Testament is always about past tense. What happened, so that you're seeing it from a past tense, you know, that this is what God did, and that's how God did it, and this is what God did. The new testament is all about what's coming. Like the New Testament is all about what's coming. So the the wrath that would come isn't actually spoken about because it hasn't come yet. So part of it is just I have the retrospect of being able to see that all these bad things happen. And the forwards and in the forward version, I'm like, this stuff can happen, it might happen, it could happen, but I never get to actually physically see it. So it feels more intense that way, right? That's the difference. But so far, I think there's one thing before we get into the final, maybe the final third section, but I think it's important to say that I think we all agree that God has not changed. Maybe, maybe the perception has changed, maybe the what we're focusing our attention has changed, but God himself and God's nature has not changed. He is good when you are good, he is wrathful when you are not good, right? So far, so far we agree with all that, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:47

I think that and I again I hope I don't step on your third point, but the other thing was we talk about the the snakes in the in the desert with Exodus, and what God did was, hey, Moses make a bronze statue of a snake, and this is going to heal them. So what's happening is he is also healing, and that's the part again that we're we're overlooking. We're saying, hey, he's punishing, he's punishing, he's punishing. He's also healing multiple times in the old testament, and he does heal in the new testament. So I agree with you. That is my per my perception is that it is God that is not changing.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

Hobby, you had something to say about you. No, I'm gonna say, I I love that you said it that way. I think that's exactly right. I think his character does not change, but you know, certain things he took certain actions to certain, you know, too reactionary to whatever happened, right? The the tightening of of of their character and you know, shaping of obedience. So, I mean, there's still a lot of things that's that's tough to hear, right? I mean, some things we haven't touched upon. I don't want to bring up this, you know, open the can of worms here, but like, you know, slavery and you know, child, you know, killing child, you know, children and stuff like that. That's one, that's one of the biggest things that people like go, wait a minute, is this a God of love? Because he done this. So there's that, that context that we don't get into. But I like to think about it like us. You know, we I am I like to think my character does not change, but depending how you push me, man, I might I might act differently, right? If you give me, you give me a hug, and you know, I'm gonna hug you back and I'm gonna love you, and I'm gonna whatever. But if you treat me wrong, I might, you know, I might do my best to to you know to push you away from me, kind of thing. So it's not to say that we're the same as God. I'm just saying that we also gotta see that also what's happening there, you know?

SPEAKER_00 36:27

So Yeah, but before Jason, before you bring on the last point, just because I don't want I don't want killing babies in slavery to be hanging out.

SPEAKER_03 36:34

I was actually gonna go right back there because look, I think that there's an interesting part. I think there's an interest look, I think it's I think you've you've been bringing up the the snakes and the and the you know the staff, right? I think that story is actually deeper than the snake and the than the snakes and the staff. I think that's the when you look, the reason he set out the snakes was because the people were not being faithful. He was, you know, I I think it's an allegory. I think that story is an allegory. Whether it happened or not, I have no idea, but I think it's an allegory that says when you do bad things, you're gonna get bitten. We even say that today. You do some bad stuff and you're gonna it's gonna come back to bite you. But what is the way, and here's the beauty, the beautiful part. How do you get away from the from the things that you have done wrong? What do you do? You reset your vision on the thing that God has set before you. And so if you like decompress that whole story, that's really what that whole story is about. It's not about snakes and death and snakes and and and you know, staffs. It's a story about if you keep your eye on God, you're cool, you're good, you're fine. You might even make the mistake to step on the stake, but you're gonna live and you're gonna be okay, and you're gonna be given the you know life beyond that. And so there's I think that's an important part. When you when it comes to the to the to the babies and the things that you're talking about there, this actually leads to my third point. And I'm not gonna let it, I'm not gonna let it go. Maybe David, don't let it, don't let it go, but this leads to my third point. Go for it. So I know you're not gonna let that go. So the the third point is this, and this one's probably significantly more controversial, but it comes, it comes from a book that I read last year, or maybe even semi-recently, that has really helped me understand some of these far, far, far more complex things. The name of the book is or the book is by Peter Ens, and I think the name is What the Bible says or something like that. I probably butchered that. But one of the things it talks about is the idea of revelation as a whole. The word revelation means to be revealed things, right? It means to find out things and then to continue to be found out things and to continue to like congeal that that knowledge and to learn that thing. If a baby is given a toy, they have to like touch the toy, feel the toy, turn the toy over, put it in their mouth a little bit, to figure out what it is, to fully understand what it is. And it's not until they've had some time to get it wrong that they get it right. And I'm I'm I'm hoping I'm like setting this up correctly. What Peter ends is saying is that you know, God is a transparent, you know, entity, and that even God and God's love needs to be revealed to us. And what a lot of the parts of the Old Testament are is people coming to know this God. They're coming to understand this God. And they're and and in sometimes they're probably misrepresenting what part God had in something or didn't have in something, especially, you know, at the time when, you know, it was a time of war. It was a time of you know, social unrest and having to, you know, defeat your enemies. And if somebody gets defeated by an enemy or somebody else doesn't, you know, my God, my God did this for me. I mean, there's even parts in the Bible where they say, Baal, you know, you know, my my God Baal helped us to win this war. And so, and that's in the Bible, by the way. I'm not like putting words in your Bible's mouth. And so, so, you know, you're living in a time where the God of the nation was responsible for the winning of these things, or at least as they understood it. And so it's very easily understandable why a you know an Israel an Israelite army would go in and do terrible things and and destroy a whole army and go, well, our God told us to do this. Is that true? I don't know. I mean, look, I I I simply, simply don't know. But I do understand that it's much more possible that the humans who were being revealed God slowly but surely could have at times attributed certain of their actions, attributed certain of their understandings to God, written them down, cataloged them as such, and then it continued to be, no pun intended, canon. But at the end of the day, we don't think that anymore about God. I mean, there's even times in the in the Bible where, you know, the understanding of God has been updated. And I'm not going to try and like restate the entire book, but the Bible gives very good, clear statements where where or this book, I should say, gives clear statements of where God is represented like this, and then you know, and two chapters later in the Bible, he's represented differently, and then two chapters later he's represented differently. And that reflects the increased understanding of God by humans who are in process of revelation of that God to understand that thing. So that's not to say that God wasn't involved in those horrible things that you're saying, Hobby. It's not to say that. It's saying that there is a chance and a very reasonable chance that those things that we talk about, particularly the very, very, very bad things, were not God breathed, but they were humans starting to understand God in those ways, which is why as we matured and we've understood God in a much more deep way, that's why we don't represent him that like that anymore, because that's not who he is. Does that make sense? Sorry, I know that was a monologue.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

No, I I actually love that you said that. Um, I I almost want to be like, welcome back, because it's been a while since you talked about the allegory, the the symbolic parts of it, and I and I missed that part of you because that is a real possibility. I don't want to shut it down. It's not the one that I subscribe to, and I'm I'm gonna tell you kind of my thoughts on it. But I love the fact you said that because there there is a listen, we all want to be right. I I don't think any of us want to be wrong when it comes to God and the Bible and things like that. But generally, what we have at the end of the day is our own interpretations because we weren't there, we're not in direct communication with God.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

That's a big disclaimer.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

Um but but but I love the fact that you said that. What I will say real quickly, as quickly as I can, is when you talk about slavery, when you talk about death of babies, when you talk about that, I do think that there's a very big difference between the slavery word that we throw around today, the slavery that we think about from the South, and the slavery that was happening back in the Bible. I think when you do some research on that, you realize there's a huge difference. The other difference that happens, and I'm not saying that one is less dramatic than the other, but death of infants and babies was way more prevalent back thousands of years ago. Sacrifice of babies was things that that was often happening. This wasn't something that was shocking anybody that somebody would go, oh my goodness, I can't believe this is happening. Where today we're living in modern day with our modern minds and we can't fathom those things. But back then, not only was God not saying, hey, this is okay, but he is living in the times that they're in. But when I compare it again, because the conversation is comparing Old Testament, New Testament, when I look at the New Testament and I look at things like Revelation, they're not saying that all babies are going to be spared from Revelation. He's also not saying that slavery, if you talk of, if you want to look at at hell and go, they're enslaved in hell when they do something that is against God, not believing in God, you know, Satan going there, the Antichrist going there. When you look at those things, you can go, okay, there is still slavery then in both of the books. So I think when we discuss, is God changing? No, he's not. Have we changed a whole lot? So that our understanding and interpretation can't ever match. I can't ever understand how to sacrifice a baby, but they did that as a common practice thousands of years ago.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Yeah. And it's I think when you think about it, right, it's also it's uh it goes back to the free will thing, I think. I think it's God can some people might argue, like, all right, why don't God just kind of snap his fingers and then we have this utopia, right? And I think that's where the free will comes in. And there has to be this, you allowed, he allows us to go about things and learn about things the way we have. And sometimes, like Jason was saying, you it could be wrong, it could be, you know, you have to do some wrong things to eventually go right, and then eventually he he kind of comes in and goes, All right, no, you're totally wrong. Let me wipe this out from you, you know. And I think that's what we see here. But the biggest thing I could take away from here, and and I want to first say, I believe God is the same. And I know we were just posing the question, just to agree to, you know, the pose the question of people thinking that God is wrathful only in the Old Testament or He's wrathful, period. I think He is a good and gracious God, and we see that. I think when we look at all the writers, the writers are not telling you this. The writers are saying that God is slow to anger, God is loving, his love abounds. He's there, they're writing about him being so great, and they're living it. They're the one that's living the the slavery, they're the one that's living the the exile, but they're writing this great things about this great God, and we see also the other great stories about God, like you know, taking out the Israelites for you know out of savory for 400 years, but also let's talk about Jonah. We talked about episode in Jonah. Jonah, he he saved this this nation from from being wiped out, and Jonah wants them to be wiped out because of all the things that they've done. But it said if they give their if they repent from what they're doing, I will save them. I mean, we see a gracious God here and a lot of things here. So I just want to point that out that when we read these, read these verses and stuff like these guys, these writers are talking about how great of a big of a God that He is that's so loving, that's slow to anger, that's that's there with us, that wants the best for us throughout the whole Bible. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

And I'll go one further. I'll just say that you you talk about, you know, same thing. We're talking about interpretation. And if I go, okay, well, let me read about what the Israelites felt about it and what the disciples felt about him, and I go, it's still interpretation, they're still interpreting what they feel God is and and all that. Um, but I'm gonna take it, John 8 58. This is now from Jesus' mouth himself, which is before Abraham, I am. Yeah, he is saying, before the New Testament, I am, I was there. So it it is him saying, Hey, I'm I was there. Uh I am the same. Yeah, I, you know, I am the same. And I know that's part of the discussion. Now, now there is an interpretation discussion, and I do believe that people do look at God as being more wrathful for certain things, and I a hundred percent agree. And Jason, I think, you know, we would be foolish to think that man does not influence what he writes, even if it's inspired by God. There's a reason we know there are different writers because different writers write differently, and we can tell when the the style of writing changes. So I think that yes, we have our influences. Yes, there can be something, you know, allegorically about uh a situation that happened that also could have been true and literal, but somebody is taking that interpretation and they're writing it down. And I I think it's it's man, we always go back to this, Jason. It's not this, we're that, it's this and that.

SPEAKER_03 47:32

Yeah, and I mean look, the the reality is that the Bible, if if anybody reads the Bible once and says they get it, they're wrong. I mean, they're the that's simple as that. The the Bible is the most complex document that has probably ever existed. It's the most, you know, conplex and what's that? And it's a best and it's a bestseller. But it's you know, it's just it's just incredible how complex it is and how nuanced it is and how subtle it is. And, you know, again, I think that's why these conversations are so important, is because nothing in this conversation today has solidified the answer and said, okay, this is what I'm walking away with, and this is what I, you know, that that's the end of that question. I'll never ask that again. The point of conversations like this is to have them at all and to let yourself move out into the sphere of, okay, I'm I'm willing to question that. I mean, you know, Israel, you know, what Jacob is called Israel because he wrestled with God. And I think this is our moment to wrestle with the text and to say, what does it mean? And what does it mean for me, and how does it mean? And and maybe as we start to conclude, you know, one of the it's funny, it's funny how God does things. You guys know I was searching for a verse before this episode and I couldn't find it, and I said, Ah, forget it, I'm not gonna find it. And it just popped up. So I'm gonna finish with this, guys. First, I'm gonna say that today has been wonderfully surprising. Every all the parts that came out of it. I know I got a lot of it. I really hope that the people who who also listened got a lot out of it. We love your questions, we love your thoughts. If you have more things to add, we love hearing them, social medias and all that. But today I want to leave you with Exodus 34, 6, and 7. And we've been we've been talking a lot about what God is, but how about we let God say what he is? Uh Exodus 34, 6 and 7 is the Lord, the Lord, compassionate and gracious. By the way, starting over, this is what the Lord says about himself. If I if I'm remembering in five, it's actually this is what God says about himself. It's one of the few times that God speaks about himself in the Bible. So it says this the Lord, the Lord, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished. So if you want to ask yourself, is God the same God in the Old Testament and the New Testament, put that on a post-it note, put it next to your Bible, read your Bible, and ask yourself if anything that you're reading contradicts that. And I would be willing to bet you a taco or a crispy cream donut that you will find out that the answer is no. So, again, the Lord the Lord, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished. So, guys, thank you for listening today. We appreciate your time, your consideration, and we'll talk to you again next week. Thanks. Bye.