SPEAKER_00: 0:02

Welcome to the Boundless Bible. My name is David Shapiro. Hey, I'm Javi Marquez. And I'm Jason Holloway. We are discussing hidden heroes of the Bible. And this might be the shortest mention of a hidden hero that we're doing. This is literally one small paragraph in the beginning of Exodus. And this would be the two midwives, Shifra and Pua, uh, that we're going to talk about today. And I'm I'm actually pretty excited to talk about characters that make an appearance, have one paragraph dedicated to them, and it's not really even dedicated to them. And that's it. And how could we possibly think of them as hidden heroes? So let's let's dive in. Well, midwives alone are hidden heroes.

SPEAKER_01: 0:44

Let's just say that's it. That alone, their title and what they do are hidden heroes. So we gotta give shout-outs to that, to the shipra and poor for doing that. But during this time with you know, with the Pharaoh and Egypt and what he commanded of them was hard decision for them to kind of like go the opposite way and really defy him. So what do they command him? Why you're on it? What do they command him to do? So yeah, so this is what Exodus 1, Shipra and Pua, our midwives. Huh? 115. Yep. Yeah, 115. Shipper and Pua our midwives, and and I think in the kingdom, I guess, with with Pharaoh and all that stuff. So um Pharaoh asks, I guess he wants to kill what he saw was the Israelites were starting to grow in his kingdom, and he did not like that. So he thought, hey, how about we just kill all the boys at birth? And he's he commanded the midwives to do that. And the these midwives, I guess they were his they were Israelites, right? And it's hard to tell decided. It was hard to tell. Yeah, so yeah, they were Hebrew. Actually, they were Hebrew. No, yeah, so whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 1:52

The wording makes it sound like they were either Hebrew or they were doing it to Hebrews. There's two different kinds of versions and translations, but they were they were either they were Hebrew midwives doing this to other Hebrews, or they were midwives to the Hebrews told to do this to Hebrews to the Hebrews, right?

SPEAKER_01: 2:06

Yeah, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 2:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_01: 2:08

Well, pretty much they defied, they they didn't like that, and they thought that you know they didn't want to follow that order. So they kind of lied to Pharaoh saying that these boys are being born, like these Israelites are so strong, these Hebrews are so strong, these these mothers, that they will give birth before we get there. And that was a lie that he told Pharaoh about why these boys were still being born, or these children, pretty much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 2:32

I love the word they use. The the women are vigorous. Vigorous, they are vigorous and give birth before we even arrive. Yes, I love it.

SPEAKER_02: 2:40

I think it's I think it's an interesting, I think it's an interesting turn of phrase, right? Like so, and and also, Javi, it's funny because you kept saying they lied, and I I believe that too until I kept reading it again while you're talking about this, and it's not even sure that they lie. I mean, they're it's just what they're telling them. I mean, does it doesn't say that if it's a lie or not, but I I think it's important either way because I mean let's start with the simple part, right? They defied Pharaoh. Yeah, they defied Pharaoh, and that's not a big thing to that's not a good thing to do. You know, you have to remember that Pharaoh was a god, and so whether they were Hebrew women who were midwives to Hebrew women, or they were Egyptian women who were midwives to a Hebrew woman, they defied whether lied or not, we don't know for sure, although I think it's an interesting thing to consider, but they defied him. And they said beyond there, and I think the reason we we assume they they lied is because they said they and because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own. So there's an implication that they maybe stretched the truth, if not, at least.

unknown: 3:45

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 3:45

Yeah. And it was listen, this you you nailed in the head, this was from the fear of God. So these are whether they were Hebrew, which I believe they were. I believe they're Hebrew. Um, or if they were Israel, or if they were Egyptians, either way, they did fear the God of Israel and went against the god of Egypt. And Pharaoh is, like you pointed out, would have been seen as a god. So you have them fearing the God of Israel. What's interesting is we don't really know a whole lot about Shepherd and Pua. We just know that they're midwives. We know that they went in, they did defy, they disobeyed Pharaoh's orders, and they were the cause, they were the miracle that caused who knows how many men, how many boys to be born rather than killed. Yeah. So this is really also interesting. I, you know, I'll tell you one of the things I never got is like why they needed to be killed before they were coming out versus all right, they were too vigorous, they came out, and so we killed them there. It was really interesting that his he was so specific. Whatever prophecy he got from his people were so specific that it needed to happen during the pregnancy, during the the the labor, and not afterwards. That makes sense. It's just a very interesting little nuance that I was for me looking at it going, I don't understand it. I think it makes it missing something here.

SPEAKER_01: 5:02

It's murder either way, right? I think it's murder either way, but I think the furrow was part of saying, like the Hebrew would not know that you murdered them as a midwife during the during the pregnancy. But if it happened after, now that birth happened, I know I gave birth to a baby, he's alive, he's crying, and now he's not in my hands anymore. What happened to him? You killed Gacha.

SPEAKER_02: 5:23

You know, I never thought of that, Javi. What an interesting way to look at it. Like he wasn't saying, like, bring out the baby, go, hey, you have a boy, and then go like take it and you know make rid of it later. Right. They're literally saying, like, as it's coming out, make sure it doesn't come out. Like, I had never considered that ever. And that's why they were asking which is why she do it.

SPEAKER_00: 5:44

Yeah, which is also very telling of Pharaoh because he would have been fearful that if he did that act afterwards, there would have been rebellion for sure versus doing it where they wouldn't know it. Yeah. Which he So it's also very telling of his power. Yeah, it is. It really is. That's that's on the thing.

SPEAKER_01: 5:59

I was gonna say I also feel like they're they are Hebrew midwives because knowing knowing the history, like reading the Bible and knowing Hebrew, they keep it within their community, right? So I would think something so delicate like that, they will have a Hebrew, another Hebrew doing that rather than somebody else outside of their culture. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 6:17

I there's there's a lot of scholarly, I I read a bunch about that because I was curious about that too. That one caught me. It was like Hebrew midwives, and it's like, does it mean midwives who are Hebrew or midwives to the Hebrew? And there's a lot of scholarly back and forth on it. So what I what I think is really maybe the most important part of this, though, is that the and even before we get into like the big stuff, is like they may be a part of you know, three verses in the Bible, and yet they're the reason that the rest of the Bible could go the way the Bible went, right? Like they they are the beginning of opposition to a world which doesn't accept God. So, and I'm saying that doesn't accept God because they were opposing a God, they were opposing the god Pharaoh for doing what they felt was right in for a god that they did fear and they knew had some control over things. And again, whether or not they were Egyptian or Hebrew doesn't really matter. They feared God, and it says that it says they feared God. Um I'm I read a really interesting commentary on all this, and I'm trying so hard not to butcher this, but I found it to be the most interesting one that I that I read, which was that you have, again, whether they're Hebrews or Egyptian, I'm not gonna say that again because I just think that's an important thing to put in the ground. We don't know, but the implication remains the same. If you're a midwife, remember the amount of death that would have happened by birth anyway. The birth, the the the death at birth rates were extreme at that time, anyway. And you don't have modern medicine, you don't have any of those things. So what did you have? You had prayers. I mean, you really like at this time, you you know, the only thing you had to believe in was God or a God or the gods or whatever you believed in. And so whether a baby lived or not had a lot to do with your belief in God. Now, the fact that they say the Egyptian women, you know, they they don't say the Egyptian women, but they do say that the Hebrew women are vigorous, right? And they have birth that don't even need midwives. So imagine a very spiritual person who is thinking of birth and death in a an extremely spiritual way. You with me so far?

SPEAKER_01: 8:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 8:32

And they see Egyptians who are having babies and they're not being vigorous about it and they're not living as much. And they are seeing the Hebrew women who believe in God having babies and being very vigorous with it and not need even needing the midwives. In the mind of those people, there are this is why they came to fear God. And whether they were Hebrew or Egyptian, they came to fear God because they saw God as the life giver. Because they saw God as the as the one who facilitates birth and life and who wants to see the exaltation and expansion of his people. You see what I'm saying? Like, so when you change that mindset, you start to see why they would have feared God and why the Egyptian or not thing doesn't matter because it was actually a process of nature that allowed them to see God and to appreciate God. Sorry, it's a bit of a stretch or it's a bit a bit of a longer understanding. But when I saw that, I was like, this is how they came to fear God, and this is how they, you know, came to see the power of God before the full power of God had even been revealed. And I got out of it that, yeah, you have plagues where God can show himself in big ways, but yeah, if you look around you, you can also see God in tiny little things, and you can come to fear him and know him and understand him in the tiniest of details or in the in the most natural and normal of details.

SPEAKER_00: 9:50

Yeah, I listen, what you said, I the other side of that is if they truly didn't know, if they were lying and said that this is vigorous, so they lie, then then they wouldn't have seen that. But I do agree that either way, this is a story of a little miracle happening before God is doing the big, huge miracles. And and going back to, you know, the the Talmud has this in it, and it's really interesting. The Talmud has Shiffer and Pua as actually Moses' mom and Moses' sister. So, you know, it would have had Ohebed and Miriam as the two midwives just being called Shifir and Puah. And it's it's interesting because it would have been, hey, we are rescuing these boys. In turn, our boy gets rescued and becomes Moses, and the story goes on. It's really interesting. Again, not biblical. This is from the Talmud, but it's really interesting that the same thing that they are recognizing the miracle before the miracle.

SPEAKER_02: 10:48

Yeah, and and there's a line, I mean, that would that would be consistent with the line. And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own, right? That is that where probably where that line is drawn from, is like he's it's drawing this fine line between these two characters, Shifra and Purah, to or uh Pua over to Miriam and I forgot the other one's name, sorry, Moses' mother.

SPEAKER_00: 11:12

Well, it's and that comes from Exodus, yeah, and it comes from Exodus 120 to 21, which is interesting because if you look at our Bibles, almost all Bibles right now has it as family. They're given a family. Oh, really? When you look at the original Hebrew, it was actually given, they were given households by God. They were actually given something that, you know, you would have had a household, a family, a place to dwell in. This this would have been like God was so pleased with their fear of him and going against Pharaoh that he gave him a household. And yes, this could have been the household Yehabed and Miriam and the household that they were given. It really is, you know, when you look at the the Teldan stilly, it's the house of David, the household becomes a bigger thing. So, could this have been they were given the house of Moses? Possibly. I again, not biblical, not not something I want to stay on too long, just a really cool side thought from the Talmud. And honestly, that what you said is is kind of the point that I see it, which is this is somebody who is the miracle, was their quiet courage. Totally. That they they stepped in, and this was before the plagues and before the burning bush, and before any of this happened. And and if you actually look at the beginning of Exodus, it's almost exclusively female who end up doing these wonderful acts of belief because this is also the the princess of Egypt that that took Moses in and said, This is going to be my child. This is the two midwives who protected the sons. This was really interesting how these acts of faith and fear are what caused the original miracle. It was not God's intervention of splitting the Red Sea or plagues. So this is the story for me where I look at it and I go, tiny story, huge faith. And that's what God is looking for sometimes.

SPEAKER_01: 13:02

Yeah, I think I think we could learn a lot from them and just standing our ground and what we you know, the fear of God. And people say fear of God is, you know, we're scared of God, but the fear of God is like the reverence of God and knowing God, and like they did, and knowing God as they, you know, as they believed, I'm not gonna do this. This is not right. So I think we could all learn some something of that. Putting, you know, putting our foot down for what is right, putting our foot down for what God is calling us to do, and and move forward in that in confidence that regardless of what happens, I was I was I was fearing God and I was in reverence of God, and I I trust God through this, through whatever action I'm taking.

SPEAKER_02: 13:40

And I and I fear God and revere God and understand God to be bigger than all other things, even Pharaoh. Right? It's it's it's it there it's to fear God. I've been I've been wrestling with this idea of what does it mean to fear God lately? And what is, you know, what does it mean to revere God? And and I think you said it really eloquently, Javi. I mean, it's it's understanding how big and what's that?

SPEAKER_01: 14:04

I like that. I said it eloquently.

SPEAKER_02: 14:06

I mean, it's I think it was really good. I mean, it's because the thing is it's not about fearing, right? It's not about being afraid of, although there's a level of that, but uh it's yeah, it's it's a reverence to. It's like I'm going to listen to you because I understand how big you are and how much bigger you are than I am, and how much bigger you are than I'm even capable of understanding. And and to do that is to say, okay, now I'm I'm charged with a question between Pharaoh and God. Which one do I fear more?

SPEAKER_01: 14:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 14:32

Because in in life we fear, we fear and revere certain things. We I mean, we don't want to revere the validation of our, you know, of our cohorts and the people who are around us and our social groups, but we do. Apparently we do, right? Because if it's between them and God, a lot of times people choose the the people, the other friends. They choose their, you know, their their social group over that. And people don't like to look at it as oh, I revere that, but they they do. They fear the recourses that would happen if they don't do this thing or dress this way or act this way or have this job or whatever. And and when I start thinking about it like that, I understand the reverence of God even better. And I think that Schifra and Pua are such great examples of people who and we see, and like you said, David, there's so many that Ruth is the same way, and and there's so many character, you know, female characters in the Bible who are like this. But I also think it's interesting, and I'm again I'm changing gears, but their their names actually meant splendor and beauty in Hebrew, if I read that correctly, which I found to be splendorous and beautiful. That I I mean I I I did. Like I was trying to, I was trying in my head, like, how do I how do I fit the names splendor and beauty into this situation? And what they did is they they did what was good. Yeah, they did what was right, what they believed in, despite the fact that the bigger chances they're gonna get killed for not doing what they were asked to do. And that's really what they did. Like they were up against death, just like Ruth was up against death, right? So by going to the by going to the king, I don't want to change stories here, but the fact that they meant splendor and beauty, it just reminds us that like when we are fearful and reverent of God above all other things, and we do what he's asking us to do, the results are the results are being called splendor and beauty.

SPEAKER_01: 16:15

Yeah, that alone is beautiful. That alone is great, but also God blessed that. He blessed them. And and then he blessed it. Exactly. He increased them, you know, he they have their own families, their own, and like you said, David, they have their own, but what was it, households and stuff like that? So I think that's yeah, that's that's and that's a that's a plus, right? That we get from from just acting right and doing right what God calls us to do. Um and this is not only this is like the tribe of Israel, like right, like this right, like there's a lot of they literally everything saved a lot of babies, the Hebrew babies, and including in that is Moses, which is one of the the the the big thing I think is why also the heroes.

SPEAKER_00: 17:23

I'm I'm gonna do something that I rarely do, because usually I have a pretty under organized area of where I want to go, and I'm gonna go into an area that I didn't think I was going today, but just before I go there, Jason, just so you know Splendor, yeah, Pua is also the another translation of the name is to cry out or to soothe cooing. Oh, just so you know. Actually, it's still just as beautiful, but it's make beautiful and also to cry out. Um, but so so this is and try to stay with me here, but it's funny, Jason. You were talking about how they would have been so used to seeing death because of how much how many times birth ended in death. And when you look at this, you go, Schiffer and Pua were like, hey, because of the fear of God, we're not gonna do this. It didn't say because we feel bad, because this is not right. They would have seen so much death because of being a midwife that they almost get numb to it. And so Pharaoh telling them to go and do this, it wasn't them going, I was horrified by him asking us to kill babies when our job is to deliver them safely. It was I feared God. And now I'm looking at that going, you know, we talk about the fear of God, whether it's reverence or whether somebody just has a fear of God. Sometimes that's necessary to change the direction of going, I'm so numb to doing wrong. I'm so numb to the things happening around me. And and I need the fear of God to kickstart my brain because here are two midwives who are tasked with keeping babies alive, told to kill them, and that's not a problem for them. The problem came when they go, I fear God more than Pharaoh, so I'm not gonna do this. And I'm going, man, I it just hit me where I'm going, the fear of God, as much as sometimes as humans, we don't want it, man, is it necessary?

SPEAKER_02: 19:11

Is it, is it ever? I mean, I talk a lot about, you know, the time when I was an atheist, right? And I and I say to myself, like, one of the problems with being an atheist is that you just you you don't have any standard to live up to. And so everything's just okay. And you can reason yourself out of anything that you did wrong or any situation that you're in, and you can give yourself a reason for why that is and how that is, and and it just is, and and like you said, you just get numb to it. And at some point, that numbness doesn't allow you, you're never gonna get out of the hole because you don't even hurt in the hole anymore. You're just hanging out in the hole, and that's just the way it is, it's just the way it's supposed to be. It's not until God intervenes in your heart and says, That's not it, that's not the way. He unnumbs you, he makes all the numbness stop being numb, and it hurts. And it hurts to be in that hole, and it hurts to be in that place, and and it's that hurt that allows you or or incentivizes you, or even you know, pushes you towards getting out of the hole. So I thank God for taking my numbness away from me. And like you said, that's what they've done in the situation. They they were most likely numb to death period. I mean, I don't know the statistics, but it's very, very low amount of people who lived, people who were born alive, you know, or stayed alive very long. So they would have been they they would have been numb to it. And God softened their heart and said, This is not correct. Yeah. And probably this is part of a bigger mission. You need to do what I'm asking you to do because I need to feel sure. What what is it you say all the time, David? Obedience, not what it was. You're not obeying, you're not yeah, you're not in the city. Yeah, it's not agreeing. It's not agreement necessarily. Sometimes it's obedience. And this is a case where we don't know if they agreed, but they obeyed, and they're ob they're obeying ultimately to Javi's point. The entire rest of the Bible basically hinges on this moment.

unknown: 21:07

Right?

SPEAKER_00: 21:07

Had they done their job. Well, look, look, had history turns because of faithful people that nobody sang songs about. No, these aren't people that we sing about now, but they turned the entire course of history from their faith.

SPEAKER_02: 21:19

So, I mean, remember I mean, talk about importance. I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. I mean, look, it says that he wanted the people to come, he wanted them to basically I hate even saying this out loud. Like, he wanted them to kill the babies on the way out so they wouldn't be there. They didn't do that, so he asked for them to be placed in the water. That's what he asked afterwards. Like throw them in the water after. They don't have it. I think Javi, I think you absolutely nailed it, and I can't believe I never got there. And I'm so happy you did that for me because that's what he was doing. As they come out, make sure that they die on the way out. But then since that wasn't the case, later he would say, you know what, take all the live ones, chuck them in the river. And and you know, so and it was because of that that the chucking in the river even became a thing, which is why Moses was able to be placed in the basket and not, you know, killed on the way out, because had they done it, he would have been, he would have died. And there never would have been a Moses. There never would have been a thing. So it literally is a coarse correcting change in history action by two people who were just simply being obedient. And and I don't think that that can be overstated. I don't think that can be overstated.

SPEAKER_01: 22:21

No. And there's there's many things. These are hidden heroes.

SPEAKER_02: 22:24

That's why they're that's why they're hidden heroes. I mean, they're they're heroes and they shouldn't be so hidden, but That's why they're it's but they are important, right? They're right there in Exodus one.

SPEAKER_01: 22:31

What are you talking about? They're not hidden. Yeah, right? I'm joking, I'm joking. I'm joking.

SPEAKER_02: 22:36

And I mean, so so we have to ask ourselves, right? Like what do we learn from this? Yeah. You know, what what do we take away from a story like this? And I'd love to hear what you guys take away from a story like this after we've talked a little bit about it.

SPEAKER_01: 22:50

I I have a thing. I mean, for me, when I read it and I see just the whole concept, and I love that we're coming across talking about this is hidden heroes. I think, I think for many parts of us, we are, we all could be hidden heroes, right? We a lot of a lot of times we want to be the David, right? And slinging Goliath. We want to be Peter and starting the church and and being this right-hand man of Jesus. We want to be the bigger characters, you know, in the book of the Bible. But these hidden heroes are in the book of the Bible. Maybe they don't have a big story, but they're still in the book of the Bible. So I think we all still have a place to play in God's plan. And although we might not seem like it's a big thing, but other people, we could be their hero, you know. And I think for you guys as dads, you could be your son's hero. You could be your wife's hero. You could be somebody's hero that make a big difference in their life that could be the president, that could be something that could make a change in the world, right? You can make the difference. And I think I see that in Shri Shipar and Pool, and obviously the other characters that we'll touch upon as this small little thing that become that could that could move and shift the world or shift somebody's world, um, if I could say that.

SPEAKER_02: 24:07

Yeah, I'm I'm I mean, I'm in the same boat. I think that, and you know, you're it's funny. I think you're you're pulling out fatherhood as as one of them, and I think that's you know, any father or mother's biggest ministry in life, right? But it's also the person whose car's broken down on the side of the road right now, right? It's also the person who just lost their job and needs a helping hand, right? Like, and and it doesn't have to be, you know, the other thing that's interesting here is they didn't have to do anything after this. They they Schiffer and Burra Bura Pua didn't, you know, start a church afterwards and become, you know, pastors and and leaders. Like they only had to do one thing in their life to be ultra, ultra impactful. And I think that that's such a message for all of us that we don't have to be everything to everyone. We just need to be something for the right person at the right time. And we need to be, and we need to be thoughtful of that. And we and and that requires, however, and here's here's kind of the the the premise to all that. We have to keep our ear to the ground, our eyes in front of us, and see who needs help. Where where are the things that need to be done that I'm not doing? Who are the people who need to be helped that I can help? You you do need to be conscientious and intentional and cognizant of those things. And if you're a person out there who says, you know what, I can't make a huge impact and I don't have that in me, right? Nobody's asking you. Look at look at Schifrin Pua. I keep getting that wrong. I keep calling her purpose because that's a linked, a linked character. Who adventures of Zelda? See, you know, I keep it's they they're they didn't do everything for everyone all the time. They just did the right thing at the right time. And I think we all have that capability. If you keep our eyes open for it, we can be that we can be those people too.

SPEAKER_00: 26:00

Yeah. Just ending with with my what I what I learned from them now is we look at miracles. I always look at miracles and we want the big ones. We want the splitting of the Red Sea, we want the plagues, we want the big miracles. And this is a small miracle before the big ones that really set everything in in action. And uh, for people today who are waiting for the big miracles and they're starting to lose their faith, they're starting to lose their belief in things. What I start to say is, you know, look in somebody's eyes, look at somebody who is hurting, look at somebody who's joyful, look at somebody who's coming to faith for the first time, somebody who comes and gets baptized and comes out of the water. When you look at them, you start to see those miracles. You start to see the miracle of happiness and joy and love. See somebody get born and their parents' face. And it goes to something much bigger for me, for me, especially being somebody who loves apologetics. You know, we argue all the time whether or not we are created or not, whether we have a soul or not. And I'm looking, going, look in somebody's eyes. There is something behind there than just a bunch of molecules racing around, bumping into each other. There is life and a soul and love and feelings and emotions and everything that you can't create in a lab. And I'm saying this is that story where the miracle of love, the miracle of defiance, the miracle before all the massive miracles happened right here. And I look at it and go, what do we have to learn today? That miracles are happening every single moment and we can be part of them.

SPEAKER_02: 27:28

Yeah. Amen. Yeah, I six verses did all that. Can you believe that? Six verses in one chapter did all that. But that is the the mystery. That's the mystery of the Bible, right? I mean, that that so much is locked in there is unbelievable and continues to amaze.

SPEAKER_01: 27:49

Yeah, if you're not paying attention to it, then you're gonna miss it. And I think that's the beauty of why we we do this as podcasts is like you're right, it's the boundless Bible, is the boundless moments that we see in the Bible and that that make a difference. That if you paying attention, you're intentional about it, you know, you can see how God's hand move, you know, and you know, so agreed.

SPEAKER_02: 28:12

So thank you as always for listening to us. Thank you guys for enlightening me as always. I appreciate you. I appreciate the people listening, and we look forward to talking to you again next week and talking about some more hidden heroes. Talk to you then. Thanks.