SPEAKER_00: 0:02

Welcome to the Boundless Bible. My name is David Shapiro. Hey, I'm Javi Marquez. And I'm Jason Holloway. So it it is, it leads me to think of a question. I'm just curious what you guys, what your thoughts are. Do you think it's harder to trust God when he's not around or to obey him when he is?

SPEAKER_02: 0:24

Man, you're gonna give me four or five minutes to figure out the other thing.

SPEAKER_00: 0:27

We haven't done a quick question in a while, and this this one's not a quick one, but is it harder to trust God when he is not around or to obey him when he is?

SPEAKER_02: 0:38

I'm gonna go with option A there. Look, I I I'm gonna go with option A because I think that when when he's not around, when when when he's not around at all, or he feels like he's not around at all, and you're trying to follow him, it's it's hard because we are creatures of vision and we see what we want or how we need to get there, and then we follow that thing. But when when that God door closes a bit, you end up feeling like you're walking in the dark. And it in especially again, because of that sinful nature and that wanting, wanting, wanting, it's very easy to fall into I don't know where I'm going and I don't know how I'm gonna get there. So let me let me make sure that I'm happy right now. Let me make I'm not looking at a long-term plan, I'm looking at a right now, and I just need it's it's survival mode, right? I think most people would call it survival mode. And I think we go into survival mode. Unfortunately, for a lot of us, survival mode isn't pray more and wait for the door to open. It's fall into my habits that make me feel good in this very moment, just so I can get through minute by minute. But so that's why I would go for that one. But the other one's equally hard.

SPEAKER_01: 1:39

I would say, I would say I was I'm the same, Jason. I think option A is definitely more easier for me to go about and just kind of you know worship God in his presence, being at church, being with others, my brothers in Christ, brothers and sisters in Christ. But I I want to say one thing is I've noticed that my depth of my love for God and my faith has been built more away from being in front of others and being alone with God than it is with others and being at church and learning from church and learning from the message that I receive on Sundays or something like that. And I think it's because of us going through the trials, us going through the weakness, us overcoming obstacles alone with God and showing us that we're capable because we have him and his strength. So I would say, although I am it's easier for me to do option A, I am grateful that the times that I've done option B and being alone with God, I'm able, I am being shaped to be the son that he asked me to be.

SPEAKER_02: 2:42

Yeah, that's good. Maybe I need to spend more time in, maybe I need to spend more time in B.

SPEAKER_00: 2:46

Maybe that's the problem. You know, I I know that we we and I'll answer it, but I know that we ask the the audience, the listening audience afterwards, like, hey, talk to us, write us here. This is actually a question I would love to hear response from. So if you're listening, listen, is it harder to trust God when he is not around or to obey him when he is? I'd love to hear what your answer is. For me, you know, obedience, it seems like if somebody looked at me, same thing, they'd be like, hey, this looks easy. He's a pastor, he studies, he's doing all these things, he's got this podcast. Oh, obedience, even knowing that he's around all the time, becomes very challenging because I think that I've gone past the faith issue. I know if I don't feel him around, hear him around, have some sort of conviction, my faith is still very strong. But I think when he's around, I still have that moment of like, man, I really, I really find total obedience really hard. And, you know, listen, we've talked to other episodes of like your favorite music. I've said reggae, reggae doesn't have always have, you know, the most PC lyrics. No, and there I am going, listen, I know it's probably not in my best interest to listen to these lyrics that are not wonderful. Right. And and I kind of like, but I really like it, and I'm going to not be obedient in this moment for the pleasure of listening to this music. Um, and I just find that, listen, we go back to identity, it kind of goes full circle. And there are moments when I quote unquote, I'm gonna do my air quotes. I am playing the part of going, I know what I'm supposed to do, I know what it's supposed to be, I'm going to follow the most I can. But then truly inside me, I'm like, I don't really want to at this moment. I don't want to be nice to this person. I want to listen to this music. I I want the control to do what I want to do. And I'm gonna be okay with the sin of missing the mark because I want this. And you said it before, you're like, I want, I want, I want. And I'm going right back to I'm like, I really want to listen to this song right now. And right now, even I have a song in mind, and I'm not gonna say what it is, but I I even please don't, but please don't, it won't go out. But it's just it's it comes back to the these are are human things and and you have to be okay with them. It doesn't mean you have to beat yourself up about them, it means you have to uh pray to God more. You have to understand that God knows this, that he doesn't want your secret, he wants your truth. And and I think that it it also helps for people to like us three to be able to share the truth and say, hey, I don't want this to be a secret. I'm struggling here and and to be held accountable.

SPEAKER_01: 5:33

Side note, I don't know if you guys know, but this is for our listeners, that David is the most interesting man in the world. Okay, this guy is Jewish background, became Christian, his name is David, but looks like Goliath. I mean, he's gone through jumping out of planes, military, done anything that you want to do, a fighter, professional fighter, punching people in the face and loves reggae. I wouldn't even think that he would love reggae. Like this guy is the most interesting man in the world, and we love him. Agreed. Agreed.

SPEAKER_02: 6:05

You know, it it's weird. It's even as you guys are talking about, you know, the the obedience when you're being called to do things. I mean, I think the it also depends on what you're being asked to do. You know, I think if if you're being asked to get up and go on a mission trip and go live in India, that's that's tough. Or like Abraham, right? Right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Abe, you know, Abraham had to what Abraham was being asked to do. I mean, so I think I think it can also be a bit of a relative answer as well, because not rel not relative because of Isaac and Abraham, but uh a relative term based on what you're being asked to do. I mean, if am I being asked not to, you know, not to eat that food? Am I being asked not to talk to that person in that way? Am I be or am I being asked to literally stop everything I'm doing and go be a Paraguay minister? Like those are those are very different. You can get very different requests. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:02

The other thing is getting in the middle. I'm not sure if you guys can still hear me because I see I see myself glitching a little bit, but if you if you can, I'm I'm definitely curious. Yep, you're good. We hear you. There's two things that I always look at, which is do I want to perform or do I want to be known? And and that can take a lot of different shapes. So do I want to perform for God or be known by God? Do I want to perform for people or be known by people in a certain way?

SPEAKER_02: 7:25

I mean, I'm glad you said that.

SPEAKER_00: 7:27

I'm glad you said that.

SPEAKER_02: 7:29

Wow. Yeah, I'm glad you said that. Look, I think the word the word perform there. Look, the the word the word perform immediately you know connotes that we're doing it, you know, acting for other people, right? And when you're in that case, no, I don't want to act for other people. I mean, I think that there's if we're being really subtle here, I think there's a time to act in front of people other too. I mean, I think if you're in a really bad mood and somebody comes to you and needs help, you shouldn't go, yeah, me too. I'm such a terrible mood. Like, you know, I do think that, you know, putting on a happy face is help me probably relevant in that case. But so, but in in in what you're saying, perform, interestingly enough, has two meanings, right? To perform means to act, you know, as something is fake. To perform also means high performance. It means to perform, it means to do well, it means to do your best. And no, I don't want to be perform and act in front of other people, but I do want to be known for performing highly in God's eyes. I I and I and I want to be able to do that in such a way that not only do other people see it, I don't think I've ever said this out loud and it just kind of click clicked with me. It's like one of the reasons that you need to perform for God is so you can prove to yourself that you're worth it in the first place. Like that that you not not that you're worth it, not that you're worth it, wrong words. That you're that you can prove to yourself that you've got it in you and that God is there to give it to you. But when you're not doing that stuff all the time, I think, especially, especially when I first came back, and you know, there's always this you walk into church and the big happy face comes on. And I and I don't think it's false at all. I think it's you know, these are the people who make me feel good, and these are this is where I feel good. And so it really genuinely picks up. But then sometimes you get out of church and you're driving home and you're you got the not happy face on, and you're like, wait a second, why do I have one one place and why do I not have it in the other? And even for ourselves, we're not always that self-aware. So part of us thinks, well, do I only mean it there? Am I faking it to myself? But again, I'm going back to something I said very, very, very early on, which is the fact that I don't think that we are lying or faking. I think that we really feel these things when we're in church and we're with the people that make us happy and with the the pastors who who fill our hearts with messages and with the people around who fill our hearts and and minds with ideas and thoughts and goodness. And then we walk away. We don't have them, and it and we don't know why that that differentiation. And the way, again, to pick that back up is to engage in those same practices, perform those same practices in your daily life behind closed doors, and you will find that you create the church inside your life.

SPEAKER_01: 10:09

Stay ready so you don't have to be ready.

SPEAKER_02: 10:11

You create yeah, you gotta you don't get caught snippet. So, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, it comes down to to that, right? Like if you, if, if what makes you perform at church is the fact that you are performing at church, performing, you know, if you're if you're performing for others at church because you are performing the acts of faith at church, all you have to do is start performing the acts of faith in your daily life, in your quiet life, in your personal life, in your silent life, in your family life, in your work life. And guess what? Every time those things come up, they're gonna have that same performance of acting or feeling or or outward expression when you take part in your work, when you take part in your family, when you take part in your in your daily life. So it it's almost, I don't want to say fake it till you make it, because I don't think it's fake it till you make it, but I do think it's perform it until it becomes non-performative.

SPEAKER_01: 11:02

That's good. Yeah, I'll I'll if I can say anything, like doing you know, being at church for a couple, you know, a couple services and stuff like that. You know, I communicate and talk to a lot of people and we go through conversations and jump in, like, wait a minute, you told me about this last week, how you are like trying to remember everything. It's it could be draining after church. I would what want to say that maybe I don't I don't put like a sad face on, but I'm like, you know, you kind of breathe and you kind of let out, and you're and it's not to say that I was performing, it's not to say that, and I'm not saying that you're saying anything about me, but I'm saying thinking about what you're saying, I'm like, am I performing that? And I don't think I'm performing, it's just I'm tired for the day and what it was, and I gave it my all when I was there, you know, to be to be a help, to be a light to, you know, to others that are at church or anywhere else. But I love I love the distinction of what you're saying, performing for God and being a performance. And I think about like pastors, you know, like, you know, do they feel this in the type of way? We're not, I'm not a pastor, so I wouldn't know, but like, do they feel that at times, you know, to want to perform or to be lucky for you, we have one here. Oh, look at that. Yeah, yeah. You know, but like, you know, my times when I'm with the group, you know, and I facilitate a group, a men's group, and you know, I don't think I try to perform, but I rather than I try to be ready to to what's to come, right? And I try to be open to the conversations that are, but there is a level of moving along, there is a level of knowing that we need to move on with the conversation, or like this is a side conversation for us to pray for and and kind of do. So I don't know, I don't know if I'm just rambling right now, but I'm just hearing what you're saying, Jason.

SPEAKER_02: 12:40

No, I think I think we're all kind of just trying to like work through a thought. And I don't know if we're all expressing it the same or if we're all even feeling it the same. It's just I I'm I'm just expressing my side because I I imagine that at least some other person in the world has said, why when I'm at my group, why when I'm at church, why when I'm at this other thing, do I feel so engaged and so full and so happy? And then on a Wednesday afternoon when I'm eating lunch, I'm like staring off into space, you know, frustrated with 90 things. Like, why are those two people existing inside of me? And what it is, and asking yourself, if you're overly self-aware, you're gonna ask yourself, why is that fake? Like, am I faking it? Is that is that is it all fake? And again, I don't, I think the answer is no. No, I think the answer is you truly feel those things. Because if by the way, if you if you could fake it, you would be able to turn around on a Wednesday when you're not feeling good and go, hey, I feel really great. But you can't do that. You can't do that. You can't just automatically turn yourself off and go, hey, look, I'm so happy right now. Hey guys, how's everything going? Now, if you were to see those people from church on that Wednesday, if you were eating lunch alone and all of a sudden they walked in, would you get that happiness? Yes, you would. Is that fake? No, it's not. It's stimulus, it's a stimulus response. These are the people who make me feel good, these are the people around whom which I feel connected and whole and like myself. And so I like I said, maybe maybe I'm just a person who grew up in the 90s and fakeness was like the ultimate sin. And so anytime I even like sniff the sense of fakeness, I'm like, I don't like this, even if it's in me. And so it, so even in me in church, there's been times where I'm like, am I being fake right now? And I'm like, but I'm I'm starting to come to terms with no, I'm not. I mean, those when I'm with people, it really genuinely fills my heart. It really genuinely engages me and gets me going. And so I don't think it's fake. I think it's just a matter about performing in such a way on a regular basis that that performance becomes the natural state.

SPEAKER_00: 14:35

I I so there's two things I want to address. One is uh obviously the elephant in the room, which is how does a pastor feel? Is he performing? So I'm gonna answer that right now for every pastor in the entire world. And the answer to that is I think drum roll, please. And we oh, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02: 14:52

There seems to be some technical um technical difficulties.

SPEAKER_00: 14:57

The other thing I want to hit that is um you you had mentioned, Jason, before that that you are performing for God at a very high level, and it kind of validates, and and I know you said your worthiness, but it does validate something. I think somebody might listen to that and go, Well, it are we supposed to be for performing for God for our own purpose or just for God. And I go, I think it hand in hand, I think you have to be okay going, I'm performing at a high level for God because I love God. It in turn is also making me feel validated and worth it and good. And I think that again, it I think we try to live in such a black and white world. And there's this gray area of going, man, it is okay. You're just saying it, it's okay to go to church and have a moment of like, I really don't feel okay. Um, and then I do, and then later I don't again. And to go, it doesn't make me a fake person, it makes me human. And I think that when you are performing for God and feeling something for it, I'm saying performing, not acting, but performance is high performance. Yes. Um, that yes, it's great that you feel validated and wonderful from it. And I think God would be very happy. Uh, a quick story I had a man and a woman who were married, struggling in their marriage, came to me. I was counseling them. And what I recommended is they read their Bible together at night. And he worked very a very laborous job, and they'd start reading and he'd fall asleep every night. And they came in a week later and she was really upset saying, Hey, he keeps falling asleep. We're trying to talk to God together, we're trying to get into this. And what I told her was, look at the perspective of how beautiful for God that the last thing on his mind before going to sleep was him. And you're upset about it. Meanwhile, God's like, This is the most beautiful thing. The moment he starts reading, he's falling asleep because he's comforted by me and my words. And it's just perspective. So you can look at a Christian and go, they're being hypocritical. I don't like them, they're being elitist, or they're being real. They are a Christian loving life and and worshiping God on Monday. I mean on Sunday, and then on Monday, the reality of their life and their brain comes back and they're like, I'm I'm just not happy. Um, and and there is some work to do there, but it doesn't mean that they're being fake. It means that they are struggling like the rest of us. Like the rest of us, right?

SPEAKER_02: 17:17

Yeah, I I think you I think you nailed it on the head with it can be both, right? I think it's important for people to realize that when you serve God makes God happy. But guess what? There is a side benefit out of that. Like anybody who's ever served, even in a secular sense, honestly, like there was times when even when I wasn't a Christian, the when I would do, you know, a food bank thing or uh, you know, help whatever, whatever I would do for some charity thing. And like the serving others helps others, and it and it, if you've ever done it, anybody out there, if you've ever done it, you feel fulfilled as well. You feel the sense of satisfaction that you don't feel in your daily life because because that's just that we're we're built that way. We are built to feel satisfaction when we satisfy the needs of others, and or when we satisfy the needs of God, more importantly, although in the secular society we think it's for others, but it it's again it's that that's not fake and that's not self-serving, it's how we are created. We are created to feel good when we serve God.

SPEAKER_01: 18:17

And yeah, thank God for that. Yeah, when we when we take our identity out of ourselves and being self-centered and focus on God, we're able to, you know, be more like He calls us to be. Colossians 3 talks about the whole chapter, just talks about, you know, we used to be living in sin, we used to, you know, do all those things, being angry, you know, lying and stuff like that. And then he asked, clothe yourself with you know gentleness, humility, patience, and and stuff like that now that you are chosen by God, now that you are a children of God. And I think that's if that could, if I can say anything like that within what we're talking about, and and and knowing your identity in Christ and knowing what it looks like to follow Christ is that, and within doing those things, it's outside of yourself. Being humble, it's I need to calm myself down to to or to accept what's happening, right? To the world around me, you know, and I think not as going back to what you were saying about serving others is living a life like that. You're able to overcome some of your own unhappiness and find joy and peace in knowing that I am satisfied with what I have and God's gonna carry me forward with what's what's to come. And I'll be able to be the light, I'm able to clothe myself in God's goodness to be able to live a life that's according to what He's called me to do, my purpose. So I'm so glad you said that.

SPEAKER_02: 19:39

But it's hard to do that when but it's hard to do that when you go to Sunday service and don't think about God for the other six days of the week. And that's right.

SPEAKER_00: 19:45

I'm so glad you said that because I don't want this to be an excuse either that somebody says, hey, I'm I'm you know, mean on Monday because I have something going on, and you know, these three guys said it's fine, it's human. No, you're right. That that we're called to the carpet. If if you are a believer in Christ and you are listening to what he's saying, and he's saying exactly, you know, love me, love your neighbor, then there is there is a command that we have, but it is also for our benefit, as you said, Jason. So, yes, at moments where we are feeling terrible, it is built into us that when we serve others, we are gonna automatically feel better from it. But we we're definitely called to stretch ourselves and and to be better than just accepting that we're human and I'm just gonna sin.

SPEAKER_01: 20:28

If I can say anything too, I mean, when we when we do those things, we also have to realize I think we don't do it. We do it for God, like to we we learn from him and and to do those things, but it's not for him. He doesn't need you to do it or not. He's gonna provide what he's gonna provide. And I think it's more for us. It's more for us to know, not to feel self-good, to feel good about ourselves, but it's it's for us to learn how to be more like he wants us to be and live a life accordingly, how we want it to live, you know. So I just feel like when we do those things, we're doing it for him, we're learning from him. But what I'm trying to say, I don't want it to be legalism and go, I'm just doing this, so now I'm right with you. I'm 100% behind you on this, I'm gonna be 100% behind you. So I go for it. Go ahead. No, no, yeah, that's what I'm gonna say. I just just wanted to to kind of express that distinction when we when we talk about doing things for God and doing things for ourselves, is all for ourselves. Our prayer, like we talk about before in many podcasts, or many episodes that we talk about, is it's not for him as much as it is for us. And and within that, he's he's he loves it, he likes it, he loves, you know what I'm saying? But it's really for us and and really centering ourselves with him and connecting ourselves with him more. And I think I see that when we serve, Jason.

SPEAKER_02: 21:41

Well, look, I oh man, it's so interesting that you went there because right as you went there, my head went to exactly the same place in a different way. Okay, the word command came up, and a command is another word that when I was a Christian, when I was a non Christian, I was like, Oh, why would you want a person who commands you to do things and requires that you do things, blah, blah, blah. Like, I command my Kid to eat vegetables. I command my kid to, you know, be nice to others, right? Like though he has a choice to do either one of them, but it that's a command. Does that mean that I am like rigorously, you know, forcing him to do something but beyond his will? No, I'm doing it for his best interest. And God is doing these things for our best. The reason he commands us to do all these things is for our benefit. Now, at the end of that, once you benefit yourself, you become more like him, and he benefits well, the world itself, the his creation benefits from it. So, you know, and this is the crazy thing. It's not like you're right, Javi, it's not about him. He doesn't need it. He's already got it, he already had it, he already does, will, have had it. If you look in forward, backwards, tense things, like, but the beauty of it is the reason he calls us, the word the word calls us to, the reason he commands us these things is so that we are made better. So that we are made better to better serve him, to better serve his purposes, to better be a force of him in this world, to be an expression of him in this world, so that the world may be more like him. And so ultimately we can become the utopic revelatory final days that we've that we've all said would come. But that can't happen until you know we've all done what we were commanded.

SPEAKER_00: 23:26

I know I dropped this off. I'm I'm back, but um I I heard the beginning of what you said, and one of the things I look at is the commandments, the laws that we were given. And if you really start to look into them, you start to realize that again, they're not just you know obscure laws for somebody to follow, they're all meant. If you look into the the what the laws are, they're all meant for our benefit. A quick one, a real little one, is like, hey, you have to purify yourself in running water. And up until only shortly, a couple centuries ago, there were doctors still washing their hands in basins of water and they didn't know about bacteria infecting other patients, not realizing the running water was for our benefit. And and that's it's just one of those little things that you go, yeah, if you look at the laws, you look at commandments, they're all there for benefit. It it's it's it's actually really a beautiful thing that God has done it in that way. We don't always like it because we we are also control people. I want to have control over this, but like you said, you know, your son eating vegetables, or hey, you have to be where you have to respect people who are older than you and things like that. But that's all for his benefit, and it's all things that's gonna help him later in life as well. And you know, what a what a loving God for doing that with us.

SPEAKER_02: 24:43

Exactly. What a loving God for doing that for us. What a loving God who says, when you please me, you please yourself. What a what a loving God for saying when when you do something good, I will give you uh, you know, I will give you a satisfaction in that and I will teach you that this is the right way for you, for your family, for your community, for your world. And it's it's it's pretty full circle and it's pretty pretty intense. So, guys, this has been a longer than expected episode. We will probably cut it into two parts just to keep people from having to listen to us beat those horses. But enjoyed, I enjoyed this conversation immensely, and I look forward to another one very soon. So, everybody out there, thank you for listening. If you got to the end of this, you got to the end of two episodes, and you are special for that. Thank you very much for being with us. We appreciate you. Likes, comments, shares, follows, shout outs, you know, whatever you can do to get a hold of us. We'd love to hear from you and answer our friend David's question for earlier. So thanks a lot, and we'll talk to you soon. Thank you.