SPEAKER_00: 0:02

Welcome to the Boundless Bible. My name is David Shapiro. Hey, I'm Javi Marquez. And I'm Jason Holloway. Hey guys, who's in charge? And I don't mean between the three of us. What I'm saying is, has it ever happened to you where you were trying to make a flight or you're driving somewhere, trying to make somewhere on time, and there's a lot of traffic, there's red lights, you're not making the flight in time. And then you have that thought in your brain, like, whoa, maybe this is some, you know, done on reason. Maybe God is stopping me from getting there on time for a purpose. And then I start thinking, should I have left earlier? Like, is this my fault or is this God's fault? Whose fault is it? Has this happened to you guys? All the time.

SPEAKER_04: 0:43

All the time.

SPEAKER_00: 0:45

To be honest, it's probably not as much to me. I'm always early to things, but but there is that question of whose fault? Is this my fault? Should I have left early? Should I have planned for the traffic? Or did God divine this moment for me to avoid an accident or a flight altogether? And I think a lot of people have these thoughts, and they also have thoughts that are kind of branches off of this. And before we start, the one thing I will say, and this is that's true about a lot of things that have to do with the Bible. The reason why these questions are so great is this is a question that theologians have been debating and discussing for thousands of years. So this isn't like, hey, this is the only answer. A lot of times Jason says it's this and that, and not this or that. So I'm excited to kind of jump into this conversation that has been discussed from people way smarter than me for thousands of years. Totally. And I'm just looking forward to kind of getting in this conversation with you guys.

SPEAKER_04: 1:41

Yeah, same here. I I feel the need to kind of leave that disclaimer up front, right? Like I'm I'm not the end all be all answer. None of us are. This is something that people have been wrestling with for years. I think we're bringing some of these topics forward because they're they're things that maybe we have wrestled with and we know that other people have wrestled with. I have done a lot of reading and research over the years. And frankly, some of these questions are the things that push me away or led me away from the church early on. And I really want a chance to help people to see things in a new light, not the ultimate light or the final light, but just a different light that might open up some eyes for them and say, I was struggling with that too. But now I can I can let go of that a little bit. Love it.

SPEAKER_02: 2:17

Yeah, I think it just gives uh us talking about this gives people, hopefully gives people peace and just kind of just a little bit of guidance and maybe just hope. I think when we talk about these conversations, or even for me, when we when I wrestle with these topics or just questions, the more I dug into it, the more I felt a little bit of peace. And I also just lean on more faith, to be honest, and uh just a lot of things in this world that we would never get an answer for, and we might not know, and we have to be okay with that.

SPEAKER_00: 2:47

Yep, agreed. But the Bible does have something to say about this, so let's jump in and let's just pick a topic along these lines and one of the branches. And let's say, you know, there are people who feel like, hey, if if God exists and we know he does, why doesn't he just show himself to everybody, jumping in, screaming, jumping up and down, showing miracles, making sure that everybody believes in him rather than what some people feel is very hidden from them. That's a question right off the bat.

SPEAKER_04: 3:17

Yeah. You know, David always asks the questions and doesn't go first on the answers, but I I would love to hear your take before jumping in on this, David. I mean, look, it's important to hear that because I think you have the pastoral side and you have more of the more of the learnings than we do. I'd love to hear your your intro on that.

SPEAKER_00: 3:33

I mean, mine's a very simple answer, which is uh he did jump and shout and show miracles and showed up and was crucified. So I think that God has showed up. That's why you started. I think that God has showed up and I think he continues to show up. And listen, we can talk about whether it's a time of Jesus or before Jesus was here, all the miracles that God had showed during the time of the Israelites, or we can show modern day miracles that I believe do still occur, and it's called testimony. We have changed the name from miracles to testimonies, but I think that he does show himself quite a bit, and I think we still have the choice to reject him. So I think the easy answer is he has, and we still choose to reject. Um, but I I don't know if that's going deep enough to it. I think it's kind of surface level, and I think we'll get further into that as you guys answer, and only because I think that then somebody says, Well, how come I haven't seen it? How come I haven't experienced it? And and so on and so forth. But I think as the overarching answer, it's he did. He he showed, yeah, he should he showed himself very, you know, very prominently and was killed for it. Look what happened. Yeah, look what happened, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 4:48

Javi, what are what's your what's your take on it? I think for this one, it's it's talking about something that we're gonna probably talk about, which is like spiritual blindness. Um 2 Corinthians 4 4 says the God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ. And I think I think it's just that. I think it's we open our eyes and we accept. We we try to accept what's what's happening and just open our eyes to truth. I think I can relate to that. That's my testimony, to be honest. I was at a place that I was open, I was really open to seeking more. You know, I was asking myself, what is my purpose? Why am I here? kind of thing. And as I was asking those questions, I was not shutting down whatever answers was coming my way. And it just so happened that God made a really loud proclamation towards my life. And I go, all right, let me let me walk down that path and let me see, let me know more about who is Christ, what is God in my life, how does that look like? And through that, I was able to find truth that I that I believe. And as I continue to walk down this path of being skeptic, right? Not a cynic, not saying no to things, but just being open and going, Well, is that true? Let me look, let me look further. That opened up my world to go, wow, there is truth for me to hold on to, and there's also things in this world that I would never understand, and that's okay. I think that's where faith comes in.

unknown: 6:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 6:14

So, Jason, we have uh we have me who is like very large. This is the entire population has seen him. Javi was very specific about what that means to an individual. I'm just curious where where you land.

SPEAKER_04: 6:26

This is one of those things I've wrestled with for so long, right? And I think before before we talk about anything else today, I think that this these questions, a lot of them come up because there are levels to the understanding of God. In the beginning, especially as children or as new believers, we we learn this like top-level theology. We learn like this top level, you know, it's it's very easy, it's very straightforward, and and we accept it and we acknowledge it because it's true. It is true. But then we start getting in our human brains and we ask questions, and then it gets a little more messy. There's this messy middle section. And then, you know, unfortunately, a lot of people don't get out of the messy middle section because they don't do the deeper research, they don't do the deeper learning, they don't acknowledge their own complicitness in the situation of, you know, God and man and us and ourselves. And and so it's not until you do that that you get to this more mature complexity of understanding, right? So that's where I'm like kind of basing a lot of this stuff. So, so you know, when the question is, why doesn't God come here? Number one, I I think you're right, David, he did. He did come and look what happened, right? You know, Javi is saying, you know, if eventually he does come, he does come to you, and it's very personal and it's very, it's very active. And I and I want to kind of like bridge that gap, which is the fact that I think that when we think of ourselves teaching people things, and to learn about God is to learn about God. Like that's all it is, it's learning. It's we have to learn how to acknowledge God. We have to learn how to see God, we have to learn how to understand God. But you don't teach a two-year-old how to do calculus, right? Like you can't teach a two-year-old how to do calculus. You have to teach them how to count first. And then after you teach them how to count, you have to teach them how to do simple basic arithmetic. And once you teach them arithmetic, you can teach them these other things. And so I think the reason that God chose to reveal himself in the way he did from the very beginning of the Bible to the end is because you can't, I couldn't have taught Moses how to use an iPhone because he wouldn't have got it. Like I couldn't even taught him the technology behind it. Like, God has to reveal himself slowly. God has to reveal himself in in patterns and in waves. And when he does that, that's how he's teaching you at your level. He's teaching you in a way that you're going to be able to take in to acknowledge and to use and to move forward with. So, to the same point, if God were to come down right now and tell us all he exists and what his dealings were and what his feelings were and all those things, we wouldn't understand it. Like we just physically wouldn't understand it. We, we, we, and we wouldn't be able to put it in practice. Like it wouldn't be surprising, it wouldn't be deep, it wouldn't be profound, and it wouldn't be useful. I think that God has to reveal himself in the way that he reveals himself, because that's the only way we can truly take it in. It's the only way we can truly understand it and understand the profundity of it. So to that point, I think that the reason he doesn't come down is because it wouldn't be as effective. I mean, and and the last thing I'll say about it for for now is that the other part of it is he has revealed himself, both in the way that you said, David, and in the way of giving us the Bible, and in the way of giving us the believers, the ones who have been more Christ-like and and and Jesus himself. So we we've seen it, we have it. He has revealed himself. Often many of us just choose not to not to see the revelation.

SPEAKER_00: 9:42

I love it, but it reminds me actually when you were talking about not giving us everything because we can't comprehend it all at once. It actually also reminds me of the entire setup of the Bible. You know, when you look at Genesis, it was I'm giving you one rule, don't eat of this tree. And then you start to get to Moses. It's, you know, you have the Ten Commandments, and then we have all the Levitical laws, and we have, and it's literally building upon itself in the Bible. It's exactly what you're saying, showing itself in his word, going, Hey, I'm gonna give you a little bit. Let's see how you do with it. I'm gonna give you a little bit more, which kind of flashes right back to Jesus and he goes, Let me give you all of it. Let me give you me in the flesh. Let me give you all of it. And you killed me for it. So now we're upset because he's not doing that again. And I'm going, you know, what is the expectation that we have sometimes? Is it so large that we want to understand and see everything that God does? Are we bring ourselves right back to Genesis going, I want that tree, I want to be God. 100%. And and I I I definitely see that as an issue for us, but that there is there is a an argument, and I understand it that there are people in this world who have never heard the gospel, will never hear the gospel, and they go, Look, if God wants everybody to be faithful and to have a relationship with me, why don't these people hear of this? And I'm not talking about just remote parts of the world, I'm talking about there are people in the United States, me knowing this, being brought up in a Jewish household, I did not hear the name Jesus Christ ever. So if if at that point something tragic happened to me and I passed before accepting Christ, before knowing and accepting him, is that something that you know God would have wanted or arranged or in control of, or is that man?

SPEAKER_02: 11:22

Just had this conversation. I just literally had this conversation with my wife's friend, and you know, it was just questions that she was just asking and and wondering, you know, of the people, the many people that maybe will never hear Jesus Christ even today. So for me, it's you know, I go back to the the hall of fame of faith, right? I think in Hebrews talks about Samson, talks about Rahab, and it talks about Abraham and just people that never heard the name Jesus Christ, but were faithful to God. And are they going to heaven? Are they spending eternity with God? You know, and to me, the Bible says yes, they are faithful ones. Yeah, so I like to say that people that never heard the name Jesus Christ, there is a God in that's been placed in our hearts, right? God, we are yearning for God in so many ways in our hearts. St. Augustine talks about that. I have it here, a matter of fact. It says, You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you. You know, I believe in that. I believe that God has placed himself in our hearts, and we're always gonna be yearning for him, even if we never heard the name Jesus Christ. And through that is what God would judge you in the end times. When when you are dead and your soul goes to heaven, he's gonna judge that.

SPEAKER_04: 12:38

I was I was just searching for a scripture and I cannot find it, but I think it was either Galatians or Ephesians when Paul is telling the people that they even if they don't know the name Jesus, they know they know the God, they know him, they they know him by his by his goodness and beauty and the you know as being the source of all things. And when I f I I hope I can have one here posted online similar to something soon.

SPEAKER_02: 13:02

It's Samiah 29.11 through four that whole thing 29.11 to 14, where he talks about your plans, you know, I know your plans and stuff like that. He goes and says, You will seek me and find me, and when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you.

SPEAKER_04: 13:18

Yeah. I mean, so you take that and you take what I again it was Paul, and I'm pretty sure it was Ephesians or Galatians, and I think it was chapter one, but I think that there's this knowledge that we all have this knowledge of God. Uh we all have the knowledge of something higher. We might not know what to call it, right? Like we may not know what to call it, but we all have a yearning for this perfection of God, the God who's who in and whom we were made in the image of. And we we have knowledge of absolute good and absolute bad, and we know good from evil, and we know, you know, we know those things. Now, I'm I'm not gonna theologically say that if a person hasn't said Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, and therefore they're gonna die and be and be saved, but I I do believe that we have a good God and a God who wants good, and a God who understands that this person has never come across the name Jason, uh Jason, the name Jesus, but has you know has never come across the name Jesus, but but yet they have had the heart of God. They have understood, respected, and believed in in those things that which are from God, and they've lived a life that was according to that. And again, it in that case it's not their fault that they didn't learn it. And and David, I think you've even said before on on previous podcasts, like none of the Jewish forefathers who we know went to heaven knew Jesus and they went. So maybe they're under the same, you know, maybe they're under the same addendum that that these guys are.

SPEAKER_00: 14:45

I'll tell you that, you know, these questions always fascinate me because when they're asked, they'll look from a very specific point of view. And the specific point of view is, hey, you know, somebody doesn't have the name. So if if I've named Jesus Christ, you know, Joe, does that preclude me from going to heaven because I, you know, I am worshipping a different God and a different God's name. And I think it it causes, you know, it causes a problem where everyone pauses and goes, I don't know what the right answer is. But when I flip the question, I look at it as not just acceptance but rejection. If you are rejecting Jesus Christ, it's very different. So I think when you look at it from rejection, if I am, hey, you're right, Jason. I think we are all born with this reverence of God. It's in our heart, Javi said as well, written in our heart. I think that's there. If we reject that, then we're rejecting Jesus right off the bat. That's the that's a primary. The secondary is exactly regardless of the name you use. And the secondary is have I heard the name and do I reject that now that I I know this is the person who died for my sins and resurrected and defeated death. And I think at that point, yes, have you do you have the complete story and you still rejecting? I I think obviously I I like I said, I just flip it to rejection versus acceptance. And it might be the easy way to get out of the question, but I I honestly think that the question needs to be looked more at because somebody who's asking it is not the person that has never heard the name Jesus Christ, it's the person that heard it and going, Am I okay rejecting this? Because this person over here doesn't know the name. And I think that when we when we come down to it, if you're rejecting, if you know the name Jesus and you're rejecting him, I I think you're not in a category of I never heard it, I never knew it, I I have no idea about this.

SPEAKER_04: 16:32

That is such a strong statement. And and I have found more this year that what I the learnings that I found aren't in what is written, it's in what's not written or in the intention behind the thing that's not written. And so I think you just nailed it right on the head, David. I mean, the if you're asking the question at all, you have to ask yourself, why are you asking it? Like, are you asking that so you can find a loophole? Are you asking it because you don't understand God? And if I don't understand God, then I'm not going to judge, you know, I'm not going to be a part of it. Like, what is your reason for asking in the first place? And man, that's strong.

SPEAKER_02: 17:08

Yeah, that were when you were talking before, Jason, about like Moses in the desert and stuff like that and having an iPhone. I was thinking about like people will ask, right? Like, if Moses had Google Maps, he would have found the promised land, right? Um, and is that is that that that question of like Jason, like David is saying, like the perspective of going, well, we don't know yet, like we're still finding out things, so maybe there isn't a God kind of thing, right? That and maybe that's opened up a different kind of conversation.

SPEAKER_04: 17:37

But you know, let's go, let's go down that conversation though, because I think that's the next question.

SPEAKER_02: 17:43

People are asking, you know, people are thinking, like, well, we we we're still finding out a lot of things, so maybe there isn't a God, so I'm just gonna wait until then or stuff like that, right? Or look, this this could have been just a coincidence, it wasn't God's divine judgment, you know, like you know, I missed a plane because I missed a plane. I was late, I woke up late and the alarm went off, you know, kind of thing starting off with what David kind of started off the the episode with. And I just I just say, I just say like you could go down these rabbit holes, but when you sit back and you really see how the world is formed, how we are here, that alone leads you into going, well, there's something there has to be something bigger, greater. And that's eat that's that's not listening to Neo Tyson and and listening to other things that that the world is for you could tell that this had to be formed by something, and that has to call the form of a higher being. And I think you just go down these rabbit hole going, well, if that's so, then that could lead me down to going, maybe there is a God, maybe there is something more higher power. What does he want for us? What's the purpose? And then maybe these are some people in the world that came and said some truth claims, like Jesus, saying, like, hey, I came from God and I am God, and this is the way you should live your life. But there's that I say that to say we just can't sit back and go, well, if he had if he had the technology back then, then it would have been good. And we're still trying to find out the truth, you know, and until then, you know, I don't believe in God.

SPEAKER_04: 19:07

Yeah. I mean look, the reason I think this is a good time to talk about this for a second, or at least to acknowledge something, is that we're we're probably gonna get into some of the more complex stuff in a minute. And I think it's really important to like set the foundation here, which is this morning I I I was reminded of one of the verses that hit me hard in the beginning of this year, which is Deuteronomy 29, 29. And it says, the secret things belong to the Lord our God. And this is the porton part, but the things which are revealed and disclosed to us belong to us and to our children forever, so that we may do the words of his law. So again, it I told you it's in those, it's in the things that aren't said. It doesn't say he's gonna reveal all things. It doesn't say that. It says, but the things that are revealed are revealed for a purpose and at a time and for a reason. And so, but it also acknowledges that there are secret things. There are secret things that you're never gonna get to know. We are humans, we are finite, we are lacking perspective of the universe, we cannot possibly be in 10 places at one time. We can't know the concatenation of events and how they get from one place to another or how or why they became what they were. And so this isn't to say that that we should just acknowledge or accept that we just don't know things and just move on. It's not to say that. And I'll even balance that with Isaiah 118. Just give me a second. Well, Isaiah 118 starts with, come and let us reason together. God says that to Isaiah, come and let us reason together. And by doing so, I'm not reading this, I'm paraphrasing, by doing so, your your blood red self will be washed white as snow. And so God's even saying, like, let's talk together, let's let's get through these things, let's learn things, let's have new things revealed, but never forget from Deuteronomy 29, 29 that there are going to be secret things of God, and you just you just have to accept your your finiteness.

SPEAKER_01: 20:56

That's basically.

SPEAKER_00: 20:57

So I I will uh I'll put this in a couple terms. One is in archaeological terms, because I love archaeology, you know, throughout the archaeological, probably late 19th, early 20th century is where it really started to boom and where things started to be found. And before that, you know, people had belief, they didn't really need that stuff, and then there was this age where all of a sudden people needed to believe things and we were also finding things. Do I think that's just a coincidence or was that you know God ordained? I don't know a hundred percent. I'm not there having that conversation, but the timing seems very odd that all of a sudden the the modern world needed to see proof and evidence, and they started debating and going, hey, this person didn't really exist, and this was a mythology, and then boom, we find all these things. And and every time they start to debate something, they find something new. I go, man, the timing is really fishy for that. But then, even more than that, it's when is it enough? We have now found so many pieces of artifacts that prove the characters in the Bible, that prove the locations, that prove the stories. I mean, over and over and over. And then what happens is other skeptics go, no, it's not enough. What about this? And what about that? And this is a little bit off. And it just goes on and on and on. And I feel like, you know, God definitely has his divine plan. This is when this is the information you need at this moment. This is what you're gonna find or be given, and and we have to accept that. But also the other side is when we're given that, why is it not enough? Why do we always want more and the next? And and that's also very human. I know that my wife gives me love, and I'm like, I want more love. And my kids show me love and I want more love, and my friends do something for me. I want more of that. And it's always, you know, more money and more status and more. Man, we are the creation of more, and it's just never gonna be enough. And again, I I put that into not God is doing something wrong, it is just our humanity gets in the way constantly.

SPEAKER_04: 23:04

Yeah. Well, that's the sinful nature. I mean, like Eve wanted more. That's why this all started. It started from that, right? And she and when she indulged in the wanting more is when it all fell apart, right? And so it's it's just one of those things, like we have to acknowledge that we are limited. And that's what Deuteronomy 29.29 does for me. It reminds me that I am limited. It reminds me that I am that no matter how many of these conversations I have, because the human part of me needs to have them, on the other side, I have to remember that there are secret things from God. There are secret things in this universe. There are sing, I mean, and and the funny thing is, and maybe this is a bit of a diversion, and I hope it's not, but scientific people, you know, say, well, you know, science has has named everything and has answered everything, or it's it's capable of answering everything, or it's on its way to answering everything. And spoiler alert, I know quite a bit about science, and it doesn't solve anything. There, there are lots and lots of answers. Like, if you really go down the the rabbit holes of any of these things, there are far more questions than there are answers. And so that's just another example of the unknowability of the universe, the unknowability of God. Like it literally, there's, I mean, I I'm not gonna get into this because this would be a huge tangent, but science is more full of questions than it is answers when you know. And I'm gonna go back to what I said before, and I'm gonna pull this back, and maybe this is a good segue. But I think that there is naive learnings at an early basis. So people who think they know a little bit about science are like, oh, I get it, I know there's chemical processes and there are elements, and those elements make atoms, and atoms make or, you know, and there's atoms and molecules, and and they think that that's the answer. But then you ask, you know, any of those people, you know, what what makes the actual physical protons, neutrons, and electrons? And they're gonna go, and now they're there's string theory, and there's there's actually this theory out there called the single electron theory, and nobody knows what they're talking about. And when you learn about these things, you're like, that sounds ridiculous. Does it really sound more ridiculous? Or does it really sound less ridiculous than a god who's sovereign and providential over the universe? It's no more or less crazy.

SPEAKER_00: 25:15

Like, I'm I'm no, you're good. I'm gonna actually shrink it down to like if somebody who's listening or watching, they they're they're like, What did he just say? Because I love it and I understood every moment of that. And I I love I ate it all up. But when you look at the three of us, we are three people who are eternal learners. We we love learning, we love reading, we love information. And the fact that we don't know everything makes learning parts so exciting. If you ever see our faces when we say something that somebody else goes, Oh man, that just clicked something. It's such a gift to not know everything. And I think about even putting it on a smaller scale, you know, you get a present on your birthday. It's like if you know what that present is, yeah, it's still nice to get it, but the whole surprise part of it makes it so amazing. So when you put it on these shrinking scales of like, hey, this is something that everybody understands. If I know everything about everything, we think that's a great thing. It really isn't. It takes the joy and the surprise and the purpose out of everything. And God knows that. And I think because he created us, he is giving us just enough to go. I have enough information that faith is not blind. It is based on something tangible and real. And I've seen it in my life, and I've seen it in the Bible, and I've seen it in in loved ones' lives and friends' lives, but I don't have all the answers, and how wonderful! Because that gets me going back again and again and again. That's good.

SPEAKER_02: 26:40

I think Jesus talks about that. I mean, like everything is happening now, it's is not new, it's definitely not new. We see it in the Bible from the beginning. You know, I think David talks about that about just knowing God further and not, you know, some like Jason was saying, like the secrets and stuff like that, but also um in Jesus' time too. I mean, he talks about here that is Matthew 12, 39. This is where beforehand the Pharisees is asking him, hey, show us a sign. You know, if you are the Messiah, you are this person, you are the truth, you are the light, show us a sign. And he says, You wicked and adulterous generations, ask for a sign, but none will be given to you except the sign of the prophet Jonah. And we talked about Jonah, go check it out. We have we had an episode on it, that's pretty good. And you know, I just think it's it's that. I think it's God is not gonna be his arm is not gonna be twisted by us and asking these things, but it will be revealed revealed to us piece by piece. I think if we ask intently, right? We say if we ask, you know, really searching for these answers and searching for like some kind of peace or for something, right? And I think God has his ways of comforting our hearts, our minds to know that we might not know something, but not knowing you're still okay, you're still good. Because I think there's a deeper heart issue that's happening when you're asking these questions. I think when we look at when we peel back all this stuff, you know, people talk about perspective, right? Our perspective from is usually from the down up, right? And we need to have a perspective from the top down. God looking down at us, not our way looking up, you know, because our like Jason was saying before, we're we're finite, we're small, our minds are just really are limited. And I think we could learn a lot from the Bible, but also through faith and seeking God through prayer or and other counsels.

SPEAKER_00: 28:28

Taking taking a word you use and actually linking it to another thought, because we were just talking about, you know, you're saying from bottom down, it's very hard to look from top down only because we're not God, and that's kind of what sure what we were saying, but but you you use the word wicked uh in one of your verses, and it reminds me, you know, David also spoke about this, and and this kind of leads right into another topic, which is uh Psalm 7073, two to three. He's asking about wicked people that are getting successes in life. And he's like, Hey, why are they getting these things when they are wicked people, God? Why are you allowing this? And I think that a lot of other people have that same thought of like, hey, are we in control or is God in control? If he is, why are wicked people having successful lives and and money and riches and fame and what appears to be everything? They're they're really successful. Why? And David asks this very question in Psalms, and I just think it's a really good segue when you use the word wicked to kind of go right into that as maybe another topic.

SPEAKER_04: 29:29

First thing that comes to my mind is something that you guys have heard Pastor Dan say in church, and because God cares more about your character than your comfort. Every time he's ever said it, which he hasn't said it many times, but the times he said it, it just like it punches you in the gut, and you're like, man, that's a big statement. Like God God doesn't care about because God knows that it doesn't matter. Like your your riches, your status, your The car you drive, those things he knows are unimportant. And he's able to give you instead the situations or the experiences that you need in order to truly grow and to become the best version of yourself, the real best version of yourself, not your version, not your idea of what the best version of yourself, but the best version of him. And I will also side note that by saying I have known people who bootstrapped themselves and picked themselves up from nothing and became something crazy and they've achieved all their goals. But when you achieve all your goals and you think that from the outside everybody's going, Oh, I want that, I want that, I want that, but the person who's got it is still not satisfied. No, like that that's not satisfaction, that's not fulfillment. I go back to Jim Carrey who said, I wish that everybody in the world would get everything they wanted, only to find out that everything they wanted wasn't there. Um and and I and it's it's the example of this. Like, yes, those people from the outside, I'm looking at them and going, Man, they got everything and they're wicked people, but what did they really get?

SPEAKER_00: 31:07

Yeah. What do they really get? You know? It to me, it it reminds me of I heard a quote once and it it reminds me of it, which is you win a race going in the wrong direction. And what appears like they have won a race, you're like, man, they have everything that earthly I want, but really it's running in the wrong direction. And it's God knows that storms are going to hit everybody. At some point in life, even those that are wildly successful are going to reach storms. And at that point, it's who you're reaching out to to help you through those storms. And then I think that, yes, we can divide our earthly selves with our heavenly selves and go, hey, eternally, we obviously want to make sure we get this right because what we have on earth is not gonna come with us in the next realm. And I get that. But in this side of things on earth, I do think that, yeah, you know, I can appear like I'm running a great race and I'm getting a lot of things and I'm going in the wrong direction, and all of a sudden that storm hits, and I'm going, what's my purpose? Yeah, what's my my role here? Who am I really leaning on? I know some people who are are very, very wealthy, and they've gotten to the points where one of them was like, Hey, I can't seem to find a bride because I can't tell if they love me or they love my wealth. And, you know, from the outward appearance, he's got everything going well. And from the inward, he's going, I feel empty. And meanwhile, what's really gonna fill him is God, not any of those things, but he can't even see that because he's blinded by the status and the wealth and the things like that. Like I said, I you're winning the race, you're just going the wrong direction. So is it really ever winning?

SPEAKER_04: 32:49

Well, ask yourself too. I mean, the the people who are have everything in the world, anybody who's been through a health scare or had a loved one have a health scare or something like that. In the middle of the night, when you're dealing with that in your brain, there's no amount of there's no amount of things that you have that are going to satisfy your soul or give you peace or give you, I don't know, whatever you want to feel in that moment. And it's it's interesting when we go through these big things is the time that we most clearly see none of this is what it's about. None of this stuff around me is what it's about. It's it's always been about a relationship with God, and I can't believe I lost that train of thought again. And I think that's a universal thought. Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_00: 33:33

So with the So do we tackle, do we tackle the big one? I I you know, it's actually a perfect segue because you're talking, I don't know if this is your big one, but you know, you talking about somebody who's sick and dealing with some health scares, it just leads me to the thought of when these things happen, and again, I don't know if this is where you were going with it, but yeah, when these things happened, right where I was going, you know, is this is this again God ordained, is this God in charge or us? And I think a lot of people in those moments, they really want to know. And and again, I'm prefacing this with for thousands of years, people want to know. So I will give you uh my humble opinion on what I think is going on. Okay, no, no, I'm not not this moment. I'm just I'm just pre- We'll have the conversation. I'm just pre-putting that out there. I have a verse that when it comes to any of us speaking, go for it, Javi.

SPEAKER_02: 34:23

I have a verse that many people probably do not want to hear, do not like. James is the man. James 1, 2, pretty much talking about perseverance. You know, consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Obviously, this dealing with maybe persecution and stuff like that, but I believe that through things that we go through, um hardships, things that you that we can't control, that is outer, it's slipping from our hands, right? And it happens to us, you know, we feel like we want to have control. That's one of the the sinful nature of us, right? It just happens to you wanna be controlled, you want to be God in some kind of way. And whenever you something happens that you lose control, you feel you feel uh attacked in some ways. And I think James, speak about perseverance and persevering through it because I think it builds character. And although for me, that's one of the things I hate to do, it's just to build my character. I hate to be like what Jason said last time, we're talking about Peter, being chiseled in some kind of way and being shaped for the way God wants us to be. And I think we could consider it pure joy whenever we face perseverance, face face oppositions, and face trials, so we could persevere through it, so we could come out of the end like a like a nice statue, very, very sharp, very, very beautiful, and and and made whole in God.

SPEAKER_00: 35:44

So I'm I'm gonna push you because you you you say it in a way that it sounds like God is, hey, I'm putting you through this because I want to chisel you and chisel your faith and things like that. So is it your position that God is the one controlling the the less fortunate things that happen in people's lives? I was trying to find a I was trying to find a verse.

SPEAKER_02: 36:05

The people say this all the time, right? God makes good for bad, right? Kind of thing, or he could turn anything that's bad happens in your life and turn into good. And I think I believe that. I believe that we ourselves have free will and we go about things and we make decisions, bad or good, and it could be our decisions, but also God is right there to turn into good to make it work out for his perfect plan. I also feel that he has a plan for us, he has a purpose for us, we have a line. So overall, it's a it's a it sounds like a really wishy-washy answer, but I believe in both. I believe God has control of our life, he makes us, he puts up in situations for it to come to fruition, right? But he also has we also have free will to make the choice to say yes, to say no, to walk down that path. But God also makes another door, and where maybe we picked a bad way, a bad decision, and God opens up another door for us to walk a different path towards his main purpose in our life. I believe that. That's what I believe. All right.

SPEAKER_04: 37:05

I don't I don't think it's wishy-washy at all, Hobby. I think I think what it needs is sharpening because this is this is one of the primary issues I've had for the entirety of my life is like, how can a God who's supposed to be all good and all loving either allow or even make happen these terrible things, right? I mean, and and I'm not gonna, for the sake of decorum, I could give you a lot of horrible, horrible, horrible situations to make you understand what I mean by just torturous, terrible, you know, horrible things. And if if you, the listener, wants to go on on your own and think of the worst things you can possibly think of, go for it. And then you have to ask yourself, did God, you know, make that happen, or did God allow that to happen, or or you know, which which level is that? And so I I I want to start by saying that this is this is something I've dealt with for a very long time. And I and I've I'm still of two minds, if I'm being completely honest. I think on one hand, you know, the sovereignty argument, the older I get, the more the sovereignty argument that God is in control of every single thing that happens and knows what's happening, it becomes more and more compelling. I won't get too far into it because I don't know if David's gonna get into it later, but I will tell you if you're struggling with sovereignty argument, you should do the research on sovereignty. And it's deep research and it's hard research and it's complicated research. But the older you get or the more mature you get, the more the sovereignty argument begins to click, but it takes a long time. And it's taking me a long time too. That being said, let me let me try to like sharpen some of the stuff that you're saying, Javi, too. Like, look, we know we have free will. I know that we have free will. We we saw it in the garden, we've seen it in there's so many if-then statements in the Bible, and it says, you know, if the Israelites choose to do this, then God says, then I will do this. There are, you know, times where God has changed his his mind, even. You know, he wanted to kill the the exiles because they kept going back, and Moses said, no, no, no, don't do it. So so we have free will. We have free will. That's almost entirely shown in the Bible. But at the same time, we have an ordered universe. God created the heavens, the earth, and and look, the Bible uses, you know, the heavens, the earth and so forth, but you have to imagine he also created, like we talked about earlier, the atoms, he created the chemical systems, he created the geometry, he created the the geography, the topography, he created literally everything. So the ordered universe exists. Now, when you have an ordered universe, you have life and death, you have consequences, you have reactions, you have actions, you have, you know, you have all of these things in an ordered universe. Now, the one thing that doesn't seem to ever connect these things together is how does free will and an ordered universe fit together? Well, you have God in the center of it, and you have the Holy Spirit, and you have guidance, and you have the word providence is actually a combination of provision and guidance. So it's God providing for you and giving you guidance simultaneously. So in the middle of ordered universe and free will is God's providence. It's his is it's his guidance. And now we can choose to use what happens in this world for good. Super slight side note, Javi, you mentioned the you know, God uses all things for good, but there's a really key part of that passage. It's Romans 8.28, right? He doesn't use all things for good, he uses all things for good for those who believe in him or for those who follow him, whatever the buttons something bad happens because of the natural flow of an ordered universe, or because of some individual using their free will in a bad way. Now, the question is if you're following him, he can make it good. If you're something, somebody that that something bad is happening and you're not following him, it may not be used for good. Yeah. So I use that to say we have an ordered universe. You're gonna have things like tornadoes and hurricanes and earthquakes, and you're gonna have things like the natural, you know, death of people. You're going to have, you know, unfortunately, kind of, you know, randomness of people making mistakes and falling off cliffs and dying that way, right? Nobody gets mad at gravity for that happens, and everybody gets mad at God for that happening, right? But I'm serious. Like, think think about that. Nobody ever gets mad at gravity for the fact that if I stand too close to an edge and I fall off and create gravity. Well, Jason, God is just the same. Well, he could say it again gravity. Well, it but there's the thing. He created gravity because gravity works. And and the ordered universe that he created is a sensical universe. It's a it's an action-reaction, action consequence universe, right? And so I continue that to say like think bad things are going to happen, I think. I think it's just it's it's part of the ordered universe. People are going to make very, very bad decisions. That's going to happen too in an ordered universe that has free will. The real question behind is God making it happen or letting it happen is how are you going to respond to it when He does? How are you going to respond to the actions or inaction in it? Are you going to respond in a Christian way? Are you going to respond with trust and belief that it could be used for good? Or are you going to start cursing God? And as we talked about far earlier, the minute you start cursing God, nothing good's going to come out of that. You know, nothing, nothing positive or nothing beneficial is going to come out of that. So yeah, I mean, it's just I I think when you look at it, you have to acknowledge that some of the bad things that happen are free will of other people. Some of the bad things are going to happen are because of an ordered universe. Is God forcing those things to happen? I don't think so. I think what he his plan and and how his plan and his will get executed is by what do you choose to do after that? What do you choose to do? And if you continue to choose to make godly decisions, and that plan that he has for you is going to be is going to be played out. The plan that he has for you is ultimately going to come to fruition. But God, if I got if God has a plan for you and you completely deny God over and over and over and over and over, I think having a plan and having a finale, a final knowledge of what's going to happen are two different things. Plans change.

SPEAKER_00: 43:21

I love what you were saying before.

SPEAKER_04: 43:22

You know, Jason.

SPEAKER_00: 43:23

And so it's partially up to you to how you, you know, it makes me kind of try to define, you know, free will just move. Uh sovereignty ensures that we end up where grace intends us. And I think that that's really what you're saying is just, you know, you have this thought of one or the other. And and Javi, I do agree with you. I think it is both. I think that we are in a divine partnership with God. And I think that he ultimately knows where the the his divine plan is, but we have the freedom within it. I have two uh verses I'm gonna read, one for either side, and I think we know as a whole, uh, it kind of defies that it's both. Uh, one is gonna come from Proverbs 16, 9, and this is the heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps, which we've heard before. And then Joshua 24, 15 on the opposite size, uh, this is who is choose daily who you will serve. And then he says, For me and my family, we will serve the Lord. So it's showing on one hand, God is saying, Listen, I'm the one who's gonna order your steps. And on the other hand, is saying, I'm gonna choose God. And I think it's it's showing that both exist. In this partnership, I do have that free will to move. God has the um what I think what ends up happening ultimately is, you know, we as believers, we we feel like, you know, everything should go our way. We're a believer, we're this, we're that. And is it if it's not going away, then it must be God and He's the one doing this. And then the truth be told, that it's both. God has his divine plan. I know that, you know, I've I've heard this before a lot of some pastors use this, uh, that GPS uh type of thought analogy behind it, which is, hey, my goal is the mall. And if I am told to go to the right and I go to the left, well, it's not gonna go, oh, you just messed up. I can't get you there. It's hey, next time you have a right, you make that next right. And then maybe you make another left and it's gonna redirect and redirect. And I think that we have the free will to move. Um, it's almost like you know, you have a this map. I can move throughout the map however I want.

SPEAKER_04: 45:22

Yeah. And this may or may not be in alignment with that, but I think it logic suggests that there's a time and when you're going to the mall and you've made so many right turns that he's gonna send you to another mall. I mean, I love that. Logic suggests, look, right, he's gonna send you to another mall. Like, there's it's not to say that he doesn't have a plan. Like I this is a big thing I had to deal with this year. A plan doesn't necessarily mean it's going to end up in the same place no matter what, because that logically speaking, that doesn't make any sense. But to say that you have a plan and then I screw up, and then my plan can change, or some of the details of how I get to that thing can change makes total sense, right? It's like a it's it's a chess board. I heard it, I heard it explained a couple years ago as a as a chess board. And like, you know, we're so concerned with the single piece, and God's playing the whole board, and it's not just a board of, you know, 33 by 33. I think that's what it is. It's it's a board of a billion by a billion. And he's not necessarily, we're worried about the piece, he's worried about the board. And every time we move in a certain direction, and 10 other people move in a different direction. For God, it's nothing to recalculate the entire game. It's it's nothing to recalculate the entire game every tenth of a second. And so the goal remains, but the plan has changed. And and I think that that's that was a big eye-opener for me, is that it doesn't mean that I am going to end up in this in one place no matter what. It means that if I want to end up in that place that God wants me to, as you said so perfectly, David, I have to partner with God to get there.

SPEAKER_00: 46:51

I also think that you when you look at it, there's words that are uh big words, and I don't know if people necessarily see the brevity of them, but you have accountability and you have expectation. Yeah. And I don't think a lot of us like to take accountability for everything we do or have done in our life. And I think that we have an expectation of God because he's all all powerful, because he's all love, that that means he has to be all obeying to us. And I think that the expectation is I've accepted Christ, my life should get easier, even though the Bible says differently. It's still our expectation, it's still there somewhere going, God's got me, so I'm good no matter what. And then I lose the accountability piece of, hey, I made those several rights, God's putting me to another mall. And I'm like, but that's not the mall I wanted to go to. And and he's like, Look, you got to be accountable for making all these rights. You made those choices. Um, and and I think that it is, man, if I've ever seen a partnership ever, and we look at that almost like it's a bad thing. And I'm going, the creator of the world wants to partner with me. How wonderful, how beautiful of a of a concept is that? But when it doesn't go my way, all of a sudden I throw my hands up and I start to become those Israelites in exile grumbling, going, This is nonsense. I can't believe I'm here. Meanwhile, God's like, Do you know where you'd be if you just kept making rights?

SPEAKER_04: 48:13

A hundred percent. Yeah. If you had just done a couple of things I said, do you realize? Yeah. I mean, that's that's a that's a big deal, right? And and so that's been my my my under, especially even with going back to Romans 8.28. Like God will turn all things for good for those who believe and follow him. And like it, it's it's just another acknowledgement that you have to be willing to to do your part if you want to get the blessed. You have to live a blessable life if you want to be blessed. And and again, going back to what we talked about earlier, being blessed doesn't necessarily mean the Ferrari and the 10,000 square foot mansion. It means being blessed in the way that really matters and the way that's really going to give peace and comfort and calm through all those things. And and I would even say, too, there's something that's been on my on my heart as we've been talking about this, which is like lately I've had this look, these are complex situations, right? And they're not ones that come with easy answers. And yet, what happens to most people when they approach these questions and they don't have an answer, they go, well, that must be, that must mean God doesn't exist. If there's no clear answers, it must mean that God doesn't exist. And one of the thoughts that's been on my heart a lot lately is that the the the absence of understanding is not the same as the absence of truth. Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 49:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 49:29

It's as simple as that, right? Like, just because I don't understand something doesn't mean that it's not true. It just means, it just means that I haven't figured it out yet. And so anybody who has these questions, I think it's it you can't keep yourself from having these questions. But what you need to be able to do is to acknowledge the questions, acknowledge the lack of understanding, continue seeking them, but don't let your belief fall or falter or fail or or be derailed by the lack of a clear answer. These are things, like we said, this is things that people have been searching for for thousands of years, and and millions of people have found comfort in one answer, and millions of people have found comforts in another answer, and millions of people have found comfort in another type of an answer. And these aren't salvation issues, these are curiosity from the human. And so if we can acknowledge, if if you as a believer are starting to falter because of one of these questions, just tell yourself, uh, Deuteronomy 29, 29 told me. Yeah, there are secrets that I will not know. And what has been revealed to me is what I need to know, and what hasn't been is because it's not for me. And but that doesn't mean Christianity is not for you, it just means the answers aren't.

SPEAKER_00: 50:35

What I love that you said is uh, you know, you said what I've been thinking about a lot, and then you're like from my heart, and then you put it out there, and it reminds me a lot of times that sometimes our objections are not logicians, um, they're heart objections. There is, I'm going through something very hard right now. I don't see a purpose for that hurt. And and and now I'm gonna question whether it's God, whether it's myself, whether it's whatever it is. Uh, this frustration, this sadness, this hurt uh is so strong on my heart. And I want my head to get me out of it. And that's just not the way it is. Um, and and I think that, you know, we when you just the way you put it out there, it just reminds me that, you know, God also cares for the heart. And there are times when when you're debating whether or not this was intentional, not intentional, did God let this happen, did God not not let this happen? Uh, ultimately what you're saying is, hey, I'm really hurt and I'm mad at you, God, for being part of this divine purpose that caused me hurt. And what God says is come to me with it, yell at me for it. Let's let's have the conversation. Uh, don't shy away and then just internalize everything and go, you know what, I'm just walking away or I'm just not going to believe in you. No, lay it at his feet. That's what he's asking to do. And I think that's sometimes what we do is we go internal with it. And, you know, I don't know about you, but when I go internal with something, it never really comes out with the right response or right answer. Right. Um, so I love that you just kind of brought that up with your heart. And I'm going, yeah, when it's a heart issue, just lay it at God's feet, bear your heart and soul to him. Um, I think you'll get a much different response from him than you will from yourself.

SPEAKER_04: 52:22

Man, that you hit me really hard with that whole when you go inside yourself, nothing good comes out. I mean, it I don't know any of us here who go inside ourselves and figure out the answer. No, it's it if we go inside ourselves, it's only God's, you know, it's only God's insight that allows us to get out of it in the first place. But I go back again, and I again I feel like it was divinely inspired that any of these came up because look at it, it's relevant again. Isaiah 118, come now and let us reason together. He's asking for that partnership again. He's saying, Come to me and let's discuss it together. And it says, Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow. Though they are as red like crimson, they shall be like wool. And so the only way to rid our hearts of these worries and fears and questions is to do this, what we're doing right now, and to do it with him in partnership. Hey man, look who's the uh pastor today. I didn't mean to. I didn't mean to. Look, I feel very strongly about these, I feel very strongly about these issues because these are look, I didn't have a podcast like this to be able to listen to that that offered alternatives to well, it just is what it is, and believe in God and He'll make it all work out. I just didn't like that answer, and I didn't have that. And and it's because I didn't have that that I spent 25 years in a wilderness, in a in a very ugly and dangerous and scary wilderness. So I'm I think you can see I'm pretty passionate about today's discussions. But that being said, we could continue this for a very long time, but we want to respect your time, listeners. We hope you've gotten something out of today. We would love to hear your feedback, whether it's individually, personally, emails, social. These are things we feel very passionate about and feel very convicted to helping other people to get through as well, I think. So let us know what you're thinking. We appreciate your time. We thank you for your time, and we will talk to you all again soon. Yeah, use your free will to subscribe. Indeed. Indeed. Thanks. Thanks, guys. Have a good day. Bye.