SPEAKER_00: 0:02

Welcome to the Boundless Bible. My name is David Shapiro. First name ever, Johannin the Immerser. And what this really is, is the Hebrew version of John the Baptizer. What do you guys think about the name Johannan the Immerser?

SPEAKER_02: 0:15

I mean, what a name. What a name. That's like out of right out of medieval times or something, or like Elden Ring or something. It's pretty crazy.

SPEAKER_00: 0:23

It's really exciting because to talk about baptisms, I know that this is going to be an episode about scripture, but when I think about my baptism, when I go back to it, you know, I remember the pastor talking about the symbolic nature of dying with Christ and being resurrected. And this is an outward pouring of an inward decision. And I remember all of that. And then when you hear some people, they go, hey, this is that moment they felt filled with the Holy Spirit. And it becomes this really intensely religious moment for them. And for me, it was just a moment of with with, I don't know, maybe 50 people there, silence. And I just remembered really connecting with God in that moment and just feeling like I was fulfilling something greater than myself and just having that really awestruck moment of this is a holy moment. This is a set apart moment. And so I just wanted to kind of talk a little bit today about what baptism is, what it isn't, where it comes from, and and hopefully you guys will kind of come on the journey with me. You guys remember your baptisms?

SPEAKER_02: 1:25

Yeah. Javi.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29

Yeah, I remember mine. Mine was pretty cool. We did ours in a big pool where we were baptizing one at a time. It was outside of the church. And we asked the congregation, they asked the congregation to come out and go outside if you want to just stay stick around for baptism. And I got a chance to baptize get baptized with my wife. So that was kind of cool. We both came to Christ around the same time, kind of in faith, and we got baptized the same day. And it was cool. It was cool to get baptized, cool to hug her after, and just kind of being there and being supported. Like you said, David, it's a it's an outward expression of the the inward, what's going on inside, and how much you change. So we can't forget that. But doing it so publicly, it was cool to do it together with a community.

SPEAKER_02: 2:16

Yeah. Mine, mine was I was very young. I think I was 10 or 11. So I but I but I still remember it like it was yesterday. I remember Pastor Finley, who's now rest in peace, but he was the guy who did it, and he grabbed me by the head, dunked me under the water, and I came up and I went, wow, it's all different now. It was it was a wild moment. And I mean, especially for a kid, just uh to know that this is supposed to be this transformative moment and then to to kind of be there to experience it and then to continue going on.

SPEAKER_00: 2:43

That's so cool. You know, a lot of people think that Johan the Immerser, who was the person who brought this into kind of this Christian realm. We look at this as if you're Christian or some denomination of that this is something that you're called to do. But what we don't realize is that John the Baptizer was a Jewish man. And what he was doing was something that came from the Jewish tradition, it came from Levitical law, which was a mikveh. This was a ritual, spiritual bath of cleansing. And this is something that was very familiar, but he did it for very different reasons. So although he did something similar, it was a new type of cleansing because he was trying to cleanse your soul, preparing you for the Messiah versus a ritual spiritual cleansing, which also kind of speaks to when you look at the Pharisees who were really about tradition versus Christ, who is here for the Father and for real relationship. This is what this was. Hey, this isn't just a ritual cleaning. This is actually going to prepare your heart for the Messiah. Uh, and this is why he was doing it. So it's interesting that this comes from a Jewish perspective, but now everybody knows uh as if you're getting baptized, oh, you're Christian, you're Catholic, like this is what you are if you're getting baptized, but this comes from the Jewish tradition.

SPEAKER_02: 4:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 4:04

Um, and and the other thing that's interesting is what they consider a mikvah is you have to have it in running water. A mikveh cannot be done in a bath, it cannot be done in a pool, it has to be running water. This comes again from Levitical law of Leviticus 11, 36. This is where it comes from. And they they have it stated as it needs to be living water, which we all know again, as what Jesus said multiple times, look living water. And they consider it living because it's flowing, it's moving, it's not stagnant.

SPEAKER_01: 4:38

That's so cool.

SPEAKER_00: 4:39

So they yeah, it's just one of those when you look back, you start to really see just how things started to form. This wasn't something that, hey, Jesus wasn't the first one to coin the phrase living water, although he did it much better. Right. Uh John the Baptizer didn't coin the baptisms, although he did it for another purpose. So we need to understand what it was to now understand what it is.

SPEAKER_02: 5:01

Yeah, I mean, I think I think all that's important. Like I learning about how the cleanliness rituals and the mikvah, like you called it, it's about preparing your heart or preparing your yourself and your soul for receiving what it is that you're supposed to. And so I thought that was always interesting, the cleaning part, and then to say that we then as Christians clean ourselves, or at least we wash ourselves of our sin. We wash ourselves of our transgressions, if you will. And the difference isn't how we do it, right? In in the Jewish tradition, it was a law, it was a legality between God, between the covenant between God and man, and it was a legality. And now it's not a legality, and I think we'll probably talk about that. Is baptism absolutely necessary type thing? And so in in the Jewish law, it was necessary. Like you could not approach God, you could not give your offering or whatever that happened to be. I'm not an expert on these things, so I'm probably if I'm butchering it, let me know. But in in our case, it's not a law, but it it's a respect, it's a sacrament, it is a way of showing, it is a I mean, it's it's a very, very important thing, but it's not a legality, which is one of the things that Jesus said when he came on earth. It's like that it's not about the legalities, it's about the heart of things. It's not about the legalities of things, it's about the the intention behind things and and the putting God first in things, not you being able to solve your own problems type thing.

SPEAKER_01: 6:22

I think you you bring a good point about it being not legality or necessary for baptism to happen for us to be saved, salvation, right? Right? Saved in a sense of saved from our sins, safe from ourselves, and actually be in heaven when we talk about salvation, it'll be with God. You're right. It's not it's not a legality thing, it's not it's it's to me is a next step from coming to Christ, right? Now, whatever's happening inward, like we said earlier, we start off the episode, now we get to do it outwardly and we get to clean ourselves of our sins. We are made new, right? Not only that, but as Christians move forward with it, as what is Romans 6 3 says, or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death, for we died and we were buried with Christ by baptism. And I think we take it as we Jesus died, resurrected into a new body, a new form. For us, we died with and when we get baptized, we go in the water, our old body gets done with, right? It gets it's a we come out a new person, we get resurrected into a new, a new living. So that's how we that's how I see it, Jason. That's coming into being a Christian and stuff like that. But I love the cleansing part as we see we see throughout the Bible that the water is a form of of cleansing.

SPEAKER_00: 7:47

Yeah, and it's it's not something that ever ended. So I don't want you anybody to think that the baptism replaced the mikveh. Today, a lot of the Hasidic community still goes to a mikveh every day before temple. It's part of their cleansing. And although we can look at it and say, hey, this is ritual, this is legalism, it absolutely is part of their Levitical law, but it's not something that had replaced it. This is now two branches that split. One became the the central part of cleansing the repentance, the renewal of the body to be able to go to temple and things like that for the Jews. And the other one became this same, this repentance and this renewal, but of the soul. And that that is now angled into the the Christian that you know we we're talking about right now. And it's it's one of those things where you you kind of look back at what happened, where it went, and this is really interesting because nothing got replaced, it literally just branched off to something else. But you know, we were talking about it, so let's just jump right in. You know, there are people who feel they blend the two, they go from legalism of Jewish mikvas to the symbolic feeling of a baptism, and they put them together and go, No, you need to be baptized in order to be saved. And and they add that in. And let's just, you mentioned it, Jason, let's jump right in and discuss where this comes from, why people feel this way, and and what the Bible has to say about it, because the Bible does chime in on it.

SPEAKER_02: 9:16

Yeah, I mean, the I I think the Bible does chime in on it. But the most famous story of somebody going to heaven and not being baptized is the thief on the cross next to Jesus. I mean, so in in that case alone, he says, You will be with me with you will be in heaven with me today. And he wasn't baptized, he died, and he went to heaven. So it just kind of shows you legalistically, you don't need to be baptized in order to be saved. In in fact, the rest of the Bible also tells you, especially the New Testament, I should say the New Testament anyway, says that you are saved from the moment you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and you commit to that in your heart, and then the fruit of the Spirit comes from that, and so forth and so on. So being saved isn't what baptism does, but that doesn't make baptism any less important. So I don't wanna I don't want to state that like baptism is like the secondary thing, it's very, very important, and I do think it has a very big role to play in people's walks, but just throwing it out there, I don't think if somebody's, you know, on their deathbed and they're dying and they don't get baptized, you don't have to worry, are they going to heaven? Like that doesn't that doesn't have to be the reason.

SPEAKER_00: 10:19

Yeah, one of the most famous verses that people quote when they mishear that, when they think, no, you need to be baptized as well. Mark 16, 16, and I'm gonna read from it real quick. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. Okay. So they say, whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, which makes it seem as though, hey, if I'm not baptized, I'm not saved. But the very next line, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. It goes back to the specific of belief. It has nothing to do with the whoever's not baptized will not be condemned. It's very specific that yes, you want to do both. And you you're 100% right. I'm so glad you said it. It's not that it's a secondary thing, is it has less importance, but it's two separate issues. It is salvation and then it is obedience. And and I think that there's two very different things where God is calling us for salvation for faith in him and for obedience to be baptized. And I think that it's very important, but it is a distinction.

SPEAKER_01: 11:22

I think it's a good distinction because there is some we have to know that Jesus Christ, his death was enough. Anything more of us doing, we do it from to show that we are saved, we are having faith, and we show that we believe in this, right? But for us to not do it doesn't mean that we're not saved in that sense. I think I believe doing something like that, maybe communion and stuff like that, is just showing the outward that we believe in Christ, we are saved through Christ and what he did for us as a remembrance, but not doing it doesn't mean we're taken away from our salvation.

SPEAKER_00: 12:00

Yeah, I mean, we're like I said, we're called to do these things. We're definitely it's very specific. The language calls us to partake in communion, to be baptized, but these are not things that as in Jason pointed out, these aren't things that have to do with salvation, as the the thief said. I mean, he said to the thief, you'll be with me in paradise today. And the thief was not baptized. So I think it's very specific. What I'd like to look at is really quickly, if you don't mind, is is taking kind of a glance at the actual baptism of Jesus.

SPEAKER_02: 12:31

This is a point where you know every Well actually, David, if you don't, if you don't mind, I I want to keep on that statement for a second because we've talked a lot about it's a it's not a secondary thing, but it's very important. So we need to talk about why it's important, right? Like we we need to talk about why it's important. And and I think it comes down to what you said. You accept Jesus as your savior, and that's your salvation, right there. That's the that's the that's the changing of the game. The game, all of your life has changed from that moment forward. The question is what fruit comes from it after? The question is what what does that repentance mean? Repentance means going the opposite direction. You know, the Hebrew word literally means to turn around and go the other direction. So, what does the repentance mean when you start to believe in Jesus Christ? Well, obviously, you have to start doing things differently. And there are outward symbols. There are like you mentioned communion. Communion is something that you do as a reverence on a regular basis to say, I do believe in this, I do commit to this, I do this is I and in fact I'm showing you that I believe in it by doing this thing, by coming to you with humility, by coming to you with the admittance that I am not enough and that you are. It's things like that, right? Or and I'm confessing my own troubles to you, I'm confessing my own problems to you. The same exact thing with baptism. Baptism is your way of saying, I need to repent of my past. And God, I believe in you. I'm already saved, I get that, but I want to show you and those around me that I am washing myself of this old person. I am going under this water in a in a public confession of faith, saying, I wash myself of that person that I was, and I am walking towards the person, and I'm coming out of the water, a fresh made person, and I'm walking towards you from here on out. And I mean, we should also acknowledge the fact that you're not going to absolutely be a totally different person after you walk out. It doesn't work like that. It's not magic, but it's a it's an expression, right? It's an expression of this thing that you believe. It's an expression. So so that's why it's important. I mean, if you if you say that you believe in Jesus and you've gotten that salvation, and then you just don't do anything about it, you have to ask yourself, how much salvation or how much belief is that really? How much commitment is that really? How much repentance is that really? And so anyway, I just wanted to mention that because I felt like we were getting a little, I don't know, shaky on that ground.

SPEAKER_00: 14:46

No, I'm glad you said that. I I think it's uh a great statement. It's a great statement of faith, and that's exactly what baptism is. It's that great statement of faith. There you go. So I'm glad you you said that. Going back towards the the actual baptism of Jesus. Um, one of the things in Matthew 3, 16 to 17, this is where if you are a Trinitarian, if you believe the Trinity, you now have the dove, the voice of the Father, and Jesus in the water all coming together. But even if you don't, there's something very specific that happens. The father says, This is my beloved son, who I'm I'm well pleased. The beloved son is the point I want to point to because again, we look at it as, hey, this is a really nice moment. The father's coming out and saying, we focus on this is my beloved son. We look at the son part going, hey, this is showing this is a son of God, and and this is a major moment. I don't want to miss the word before beloved, because this is now, remember, this is supposed to be in the line of the king of David. David, who means beloved. That's literally the translation. So this is God pointing to the line of David, saying, This is my beloved son, whom I'm well pleased. And anybody who's Jewish then would have seen that and go, This is literally God, the father, saying, This is in the line of David that was prophesied before. And some of the other words he uses in that statement that would have been Hebrew would have actually come right out of Isaiah, which is the prophetic, and also would have been part of Isaac's story as well, who, when Isaac was the beloved only son, it also is the same reference that he's making in that statement. So he is literally talking about prophecy about Isaac and his sacrifice and the line of David all in one statement. So instead of just focusing on the sun, I love the fact that these words were very, very specific and recorded that way.

SPEAKER_02: 16:35

Yeah. I mean, that's awesome for me. I I think we've already talked about how the mikvah rituals branched off of and you can't created the Christian rituals, and and this is a really good example of how how the Bible intended to do that. I mean, by saying you are essentially you are my Davidical son, you are my this is all the things that you have heard about previously. This is all of the things I was pointing you towards mikveh, but now I'm pointing you towards a new way. And I'm making sure that the sign is clear. I'm making sure that the you know inflection point is clear. And that's it's kind of thing the only Bible can do. It's the kind of thing that you don't find. I mean, you just don't find that stuff anywhere else.

SPEAKER_00: 17:15

No, you definitely can't. For it to work out that way and the wording and the prophecies to be, you know, coming true right there, and the wording in it to show that is one of the most beautiful things.

SPEAKER_02: 17:26

Yeah. This week as I was looking at baptism too, one of the things that I I found super interesting was that John the Baptist is, or Johann the Baptizer. What was it? I got it.

SPEAKER_00: 17:38

Young the immerser.

SPEAKER_02: 17:40

Johan the Immerser is out in the wilderness baptizing people and telling that, telling them to repent. The wilderness, I don't think, is another is another not accident, right? Like the wilderness all throughout the Bible is the place of change. It's the place of confusion, it's the place of finding yourself. It had happened in Exodus. Jesus even was had to actually, by the way, Jesus had to be out in the wilderness in order to be baptized by by John the Baptist. So, you know, there's there's this idea that you're you're in the wilderness. And again, all of us who have already converted to Christianity knows that we spent a long time, you know, if you're if you grew into it later, you spent a long time in the wilderness. And it was it was through a baptizer, it was through Jesus that you were able to be cleansed, you know, in this baptism ritual in order to, you know, go go into Jerusalem, to go back to Jerusalem. And so I don't know, I just thought it was really interesting that the first baptisms didn't just take place anywhere, they took place in the wilderness. So people had to go into their wilderness in order to come out of their wilderness. And they had to do it by passing through the baptism, which I don't know. I just found that I found that really interesting and really relatable. Is that yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00: 18:51

I never actually thought of it that way, but you're you're 100% right. You do need to go through the wilderness to get to that point. So I I love it. So I'm gonna kind of go into one more thing that we we look at in one way and and we focus on, I think sometimes the wrong thing. Not the wrong thing, just we can focus on something else. So, much like we we can focus on my beloved son and we focus on the son part, um, there's something that happens at the crucifixion. And this is something that if you look at Zechariah 13, one, he talks about the the fountain, the spring that will come out and pour over Israel. And this is pouring over the house of David. This is a prophetic, you know, point to what's gonna happen. And now we have the crucifixion and we know about that, and we really focus on the covenantal blood, and we go, hey, the blood that covers, and it's a hundred percent we should be paying attention to that. But one of the other things we should be paying attention to is at the very end, to see if Jesus is dead, you have the Roman guard who pierces him on the side, and they very specifically say, blood and water. Now, what's really cool is scientists have looked at this and said, yes, he probably pierced the pericardium, which is a part of the lower part of the heart. And that's what if somebody is dead, you'll see some water with some blood coming out. And and again, people look at it and go, this is proof that this scientifically happened and all that. Um, what I want you to notice is that people are not only washed by the blood of Christ, they're washed by the purifying waters of Christ. And this comes directly from his heart. So the water and the blood, the covenant and the cleansing is coming from Jesus' heart, and that's what's covering us. And that part, whether you were baptized before or you're thinking about being baptized, literally, this is also symbolic of the covering of the blood and the water of Christ's heart. That was big.

SPEAKER_02: 20:54

You haven't dropped a bomb like that for a while. That was a good one.

SPEAKER_00: 20:58

It's just one of those things where you pay attention to something, you go, why would the writers specifically write about water? They weren't thinking medically. They weren't thinking, well, I'm gonna write about the water and the blood because medically this is coming from the heart. They literally are just writing what they're seeing, and what they're seeing is this purification coming from Christ's heart that's now covering us. So I yeah, when I think of the importance of baptism, not necessarily for salvation, but definitely the importance is just, I mean, layer upon layer within the Bible, and and the scriptures tell me to be baptized, and I think that's why at that moment there was just such a quiet time with me and the Lord while he was covering me.

SPEAKER_01: 21:41

I think it's beautiful. I think from what I heard about the water and the blood, it's it's also a proof that he was dead, that he did die right away, and that shows that they were even surprised the guards that he didn't die right away. Crucifixion is a torment which could last more than a day or two, I think, right? I don't know, I'm not sure how long, but he died within a couple hours, which shows the cruci, you know, the the pain that he was in, but also I mean that leads down a different path in baptism, but it just shows that he was, you know, kind of died at a quick way. That's how I always took it the blood and water. I think the blood and washing, I think that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00: 22:22

But the other thing is, you know, Jason, you mentioned that he was in the wilderness and then was baptized. Baptism actually started his ministry, that was the starting point at which Jesus started his ministry. So the water in the baptism was the start. The water coming out of him was the end of his ministry as well. So again, now you have this relational of the water that was not only starting his ministry but ending it and starting the ministry of his life and everybody else's world and covering us. So um just think it's it's again one of those symbolic things. I think baptism is one of those things that you can look at symbolically or literally, and it's beautiful on both accounts.

SPEAKER_02: 23:02

I was gonna say, or or both, or both. So, you know, I I think this is an interesting topic because I think there's a lot of people out there who have already been baptized and they're wondering what to do with any of this. And and first of all, it's just to remind yourself of what you did. You know, you did this, you you've already done this, it was already an important moment for you. You know, you can do it again. If if you feel compelled to do it again, what do you guys feel about doing getting multiply baptized?

SPEAKER_01: 23:28

I was gonna bring that up, but I didn't want to go down a different rabbit hole. Go for me, you don't have to. Anyone that wants to get baptized again, you don't really have to. I don't see a need for it. But if people w want to do it because it means their new life again, or they kind of came back to Christ, going back to I think Jason, you explained it well that it would make sense to get baptized again because it's a form of repentance, and and like old, old is gone, new is come. So getting baptized again makes sense, but I don't think it means anything towards your salvation, it doesn't mean anything towards you following Christ. Once again, I think uh doing baptism or anything outside of saying yes to Christ in your life and actually following is just adding on to his his his death for us and what he did. We're already sanctified, we're already made new, we're made righteous through his his death. The uh, you know, our sins are gone when he died, so anything else is just adding on to what has already been done.

SPEAKER_02: 24:32

Yeah. And I'm in agreement. I don't think obviously we've talked about it, you don't need to get baptized even to be saved, but to but if you feel like getting baptized twice because or three times or four times, I'm not the person here, but you know, hey, look, look, if you if you fall off, you know, for a while and you feel pretty upset about it and you feel like you need a moment of repentance, you know, uh David, maybe you can give us the pastoral response to that one.

SPEAKER_00: 24:55

Everything comes down to conviction. We we say we have convictions about so many things, and there are people who have been baptized and they come back and they go, listen, I I want to be baptized again. I feel like the first time was more for my family, or I was young, or whatever the case may be, or yes, I went through something in my my life and I I am reconnecting with Jesus and I want to be baptized again. And I think if you have that conviction, you you should absolutely be baptized again. For me, I will tell you that I was baptized in a baptismal outside and it was not running water. And if I ever have a chance to visit the Jordan and there are people being baptized in the Jordan River right now, um, if there's a chance for me to be baptized in the Jordan River, I'm going. Uh, it's just something that I'm gonna be doing again. I'm convicted in that. So, yes, I think that you don't need to. You don't need to the first time. I think we're called to, I think by obedience we're called to, but you don't need to. But I think that yes, if you've been baptized and you're thinking about doing it again for whatever reason is, if you're convicted and and Jesus has laid that on your heart, you shouldn't feel embarrassed or confused about it. I say at that point, just go and get rebaptized, and and that's it. I think it's it's fine. There's a lot of people who kind of argue about, hey, should I be sprinkle baptized or immersed baptized? And again, I can look in the scriptures and I can find parts of sprinkling water, and I can also find parts of immersion, and I have my own opinions about that. But if you were like, hey, I was sprinkled as a child and now I want to be immersed, go ahead. I mean, there's nothing you are literally showing the world that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior in this act. I don't think it's something you have to shy away from. But if you're using it as a get out of jail free card and going, hey, I'm sending, okay, I'm immersed. Hey, I'm sending, okay, I'm immersed. That's not quite how it works. There's nothing magical about the baptismal pool.

SPEAKER_02: 26:55

The baptismal pool is not a confessional, right? Like it's not but also if you go to the right churches, you get a cool t-shirt out of it too. So, you know, win-win. Hey. I do love a good t-shirt.

SPEAKER_01: 27:05

Um who do Church merch.

SPEAKER_02: 27:07

Guys, all right. So appreciate these conversations. I love it. My name is David Spear. I always think I know enough about Jason Holland. Clearly, I don't. This is this is here for anybody who wants to take on what they learn. So we, if there's anything you learn from this, if there's anything that you want to know more about, we always love that your questions, we love your comments. So send them to us. Either email us, send them to us on socials, send them to us, send a carrier pitch, I guess, if you like. But let us know what you're thinking. Give us some likes, comments, reviews, shares, all those things. They help us to get to other people. And we'll talk to you all soon. Thanks a lot. Bye bye. Later, guys.

SPEAKER_00: 27:42

Yep.