David: 0:02

Welcome to the Boundless Bible. My name is David Shapiro. Hey, I'm Javi Marquez. And I'm Jason Holloway. Welcome back, guys. I'm really excited for today's conversation. I'm going to start off a little bit different. I'm going to start with a story that I'm going to tell you guys. Uh, and this actually comes my family a few years ago. I try to pride myself in finding really cool places to go and to look at. And I found a place in central Florida called Spook Hill. And Spook Hill is supposed to be this hill that appears as though when you're going up, you're actually going down. And I brought my family here, and it was one of the worst things I ever chose. It really didn't, I didn't see what other people were seeing. So what I ended up doing is I didn't want it to be a waste, and I ended up stepping on the gas. So I would go uphill because I thought you were supposed to roll uphill. It was a weird it wasn't really clear. Okay. Um, but coming back, you know, we've talked about that story before, and you know, my son remembers the story by me stepping on the gas and him looking at me, going, Hey, you're stepping on the gas, and me trying telling him to be quiet. So his younger sister wouldn't know that. She remembers it just being a disaster and me being frustrated, you know, my wife was kind of laughing because usually I'm really good at this stuff. But what I found out is we had four very different thoughts of the same exact day. And when you ask everybody about it, they're gonna give you four completely different stories that all have to do with Spook Hill. They'll all remember that, but they're gonna remember it in their way. And what it reminds me of is the four gospels. This brings me to where a lot of people, a lot of skeptics as well, kind of go, Hey, why are there four gospels and why are they so different? So I want to kind of open that up as an intro and say, hey, let's let's talk about this because it's an interesting topic.

Jason: 1:47

Yeah, I think it's a great topic. I mean, I I think it's really important to like tackle it head on because this is something that I'll say honestly, a lot of people don't read the gospels and they don't know. They don't realize it and they never even understand this. But for those who are digging a hair deeper and they are reading the Bible, and they read Matthew, then Mark, then Luke, then John, they they realize that it's not the same story. Um, you know, and and that causes questions. And then there are well, I mean later we'll talk about, I'm sure, that there are some even details that differ. And, you know, again, that can cause some strife for people. So I love that we're having this conversation today because I think it's going to help us to kind of assuage some of those fears or their those complications for people.

Javi: 2:31

Yeah. I love what you agree speaking to you about this, Jason. I love what you say. What is it? The four, not five.

Jason: 2:38

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I yeah, I think that we we said this before. Why are there four? Was the question. And I said, because three would be too little and five would be too much. That's the that's that's the easy answer, right? It's three, three is not enough. Five is uh is too much. So four, perfect number, right on target. Yeah.

David: 2:54

Yeah. One of the things I'll say right off the bat is in Deuteronomy 1915, part of the laws is you want witnesses for when somebody is accused of something, when you're trying to figure out what the story is. Deuteronomy actually says you need more than one witness. Yeah, and here you have four witnesses to the same account. And I feel like this is also God going by his own law, his own standard, and saying, Listen, I'm gonna give you four different accounts of the life of Jesus. And I think so, right off the bat, we're starting off with something that's necessary, not just, hey, why did he? He gave us these because that's part of his law that he's following.

Javi: 3:29

Yeah, and Deuteronomy 19, 15, it goes two or three witnesses, God said, I'm gonna give you four gospels. So just he just always, always outdo himself, you know. And I think it makes sense. I think it makes sense when we look at news publications and like we see the same story but done in different, you know, explained in different ways, or just sharing, you know, you know, different books on different topics, right? Even a lot of books on Jesus and stuff like that. And it's just it's good to hear and see different perspectives, different angles on it to get the full story of what happened.

Jason: 4:05

I think it's interesting that you brought up news, right? Because we we particularly live in a in a society now where you either live listen to one side of news or you listen to the other side of news. And that's even though you feel like you're well versed, re realistically you're you're looking at one side of a spectrum or the other side of a spectrum. And the thing about the gospels is that you have four of them, right? And so it clearly is not a dichotomy. It's and and you add to your point, David, you have a third person involved who's able to, you know, commiserate which one of the three is right. And then you have another one still, just to add nuance to the story, just to add perspective. And so if if I really wanted to understand, I imagine if I was a detective, I wouldn't want to hear one person's side of the story. I'd want to hear two people's and three people's. And by by the fourth person, I really feel like I get a I get an account of it. And so again, I'm I didn't tie that back to the political thing or the news thing, but you know, right now we're kind of in this very dichotomous thing, and it's I'm right or you're right, but there's no there's no meeting in the middle. The gospels are a really good example of why you shouldn't listen to one or the other. You need to listen to two, three, four, even sometimes even opposing views in order to really understand where the middle is. And I think that's one of the main reasons that there's four gospels, personally. Yeah.

David: 5:17

Yeah. And it also speaks to four very different people. So when you look at the four gospels, yes, you know, Matthew is speaking to the Jewish population. Uh, you have Mark that's speaking to the Roman, you have Luke that's speaking to the Greek, and then even with John, he's speaking more to the evangelistic. So it's it's four completely different people that are actually being spoken to through the gospels. And and listen, there are Matthew being the one speaking to Jewish people, that should be the one that would speak to me the best, being that I was born and raised in a Jewish household, but it doesn't. Mine's actually John. Uh mine goes to that theological, you know, uh evangelistic theme, and that's what speaks more to me. So it also speaks differently to different people.

Javi: 5:59

Yeah, that's cool. I would say for me, I'm I didn't grow up Jewish, but Matthew is probably one of my favorite ones. Is it? Because it speaks on it just the whole genealogy is amazing to me and just kind of like the breakdown of how we got to Jesus and him being, you know, that that that lineage, right? If I'm saying that right. And yeah, I think they're all great, and I think they all have they all have a value in the overall story of Jesus, and it all points to Jesus being the the the son of God that was here on earth that came to be the savior to a promise of the world, right? And he's just he, you know, for for us as sinners gave us salvation, but also one thing they also all mention is the resurrection. Yes. So we can't forget that.

Jason: 6:47

Yeah. I mean, uh Dave, why don't we why don't we talk about how I mean I don't think people even know about the four, you know, the four audiences they may have been speaking to. Maybe we take talk a little bit about that.

David: 6:57

I mean, you talked about Matthew being to the Yeah, so this is, you know, very he talks about the Old Testament prophecy quite a bit. This is speaking to God's chosen people. It is really focusing on Jesus being the Son of God, the one who came down to suffer. This is a prophecy from Isaiah. So he heavily talks about that the gospel of Matthew is about how Jesus came down as the Messiah, as the one that the Jewish people have been waiting for. And that's really where his focus is. It's the fulfillment of this Old Testament prophecy. Yeah. When you look at Mark now, he really focuses more on the miracles. He focuses on the action and what's going on. So it's a very specific and a completely different crowd. Not that he doesn't care about Old Testament prophecy, but he's not the person who can speak on it. Right. So he takes a step back and he kind of looks at the action.

Jason: 7:47

Well, and if he's speaking and if he's speaking to the Romans, one of the things he's trying to do is show the importance of this Jesus person because he can't set it up as prophecy and fulfillment because they didn't have that prophecy for them. So to them, he's trying to explain the divinity. He's trying to express the divinity, he's trying to let them know the speciality of this human and why they should be paying attention to it.

David: 8:10

Yeah. Luke, who I happen to think is probably your favorite, Jason.

Jason: 8:13

This is the well, the book is, yes.

David: 8:17

This is the physician. This is the one that focuses a lot on history, also on compassion. He focuses his attention. Now you're looking at the Greek and Gentile world, who really focuses on the philosophy and love, but also kept a really good history. And this was the physician Luke. So this is what his gospel did, which is why I knew this would be your favorite, Jason.

Jason: 8:38

Well, yeah, I mean, there's there's there's a couple reasons it's my favorite. One is that it expands, it's probably the most robust in terms of historical value. Um, it's the most robust in terms of historicity. I know I've heard Weshoff talk about how they use Luke as really a primary source to figure out if, you know, the the names of the time, the places of the time. Luke actually begins by him saying something that's a very kind of Greek thought of I'm I'm interviewing witnesses, I'm taking my due diligence process to make sure that the history I present to you is correct. And I and again, I find that I find that very interesting as well. But it's just it's a very robust story. It's the longest one, I believe. And it's it's it's the one that gives me the most archaeological trust. It's the one that gives me the most, um, I don't know, like historical trust.

David: 9:31

Yeah, which is which is interesting because you know, we look at Matthew and John, these were direct apostles. We look at Mark and Luke. Mark was a missionary, and Luke, again, was a physician, yeah. He was a historian, but he also had no attachment as far as he was not an apostle. He was writing simply the historical accounts of it, which sometimes is the greatest way to get history, is from somebody outside of it looking in because you're not getting opinion, you're getting just straight historical facts, which is great.

Javi: 9:57

What I love about Luke is I mean, he starts off just, you know, first of all, he's a physician, right? He's a he's a learned man, he's he's educated, right? A man of science. Right, a man of science, and he's he's he goes out and he starts off in Luke 1 1 through 4. Um, I'll briefly pick out something from there. It goes, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you. He's talking to Theolopolis. I probably said that wrong, but you know, it's a guy that's you know a learned man, right? And he's gonna take his time to really, you know, really figure out what happened here. Who's this special man called Jesus and what is what really took account? So we could trust that. We could we could go, all right, at least he went out and thoroughly presented this in this way that was not a follower, he was an outsider in a sense. So and I love that. That's why each one makes sense. I think you you you brought up a good point, David.

Jason: 10:56

Yeah, and and to that to sorry, to that point too. I mean, look, I just realized as you were saying it, Javi. I mean, it also shows that there's different types of believers, right? There were people who were with him who saw it firsthand, experienced it very heart-oriented and very personally oriented, right? And then you have Mark who uh wasn't there but still got the experience of it secondhand. It was still, it was still very tactile and and not entirely, I'm not saying it wasn't, but it wasn't entirely cerebral. And then you have Luke who says, I'm a man of science, I have done my research, I have done my historical diggings, and this is what I have found. And you know, you have you have the person who needs the logic and this, you know, cognition of why it's true, and he has believed it's true. And so there's another person. Now let's get to John as we sorry, as I cut you off there, but no, you're good.

David: 11:45

So John is is the word becomes flesh. This is somebody who focuses on Jesus being fully human and also fully divine. This is he focuses on the I am statements, yes, focuses on the strong belief of Jesus as both God and as man. And this is again why it's so crucial for me, and one of the ones that I love the most is a lot of times, especially in the Jewish faith, they believe that the reason why Jesus could not have been God is because maybe he was the Messiah, maybe he was a man who was sent as the Messiah, but God would never lower himself, lower himself to be a man. Um meanwhile, this shows the humility and and humbleness of of God as well. And for me, John showing that he's fully man and fully God. He really is word in the flesh. This is why it's my favorite.

Jason: 12:39

Yeah, I mean, and that's also if if we're getting technical, isn't that called like the high Christology of of of Christ? And you know, how quickly do you, how quickly in the gospels do they get to the fact that he's not just a man, but he's also partially God? Um I'm not fully versed on it, but I I know that that's one of the big things is that very early on, people we have we have documented record of people not just saying he's a great guy, but saying he's God, that he is God come in the flesh. And that's and it's it's partially in some of the other ones, but I think John is the one where it's most uh most explicit, if I'm not mistaken. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I it's funny because I love I love Luke, but if I had to tell somebody which book to read, it would be John, because I think John does the best job of helping a non-believer to see the full picture. Um and as we've talked about the differences in these three, you know, this or four, the differences in these four, this is the one that most gives you that full picture. I also want to go back and say, I think John is the last of the gospels, which also makes a whole lot of sense because if Matthew and and Luke were were with him, they were going to be experiencing it in the present tense. They were gonna be experiencing these things in the present. Say it again. John was with them.

Javi: 13:51

Yeah.

Jason: 13:51

Yeah, John and Matthew. But but if it was written at the end, right, the people who wrote early would have been writing about their experience and what it meant to them at the time. And Luke would have written about what it meant after some time. But John, having written at the end, had time to not only see what happened to Jesus and what happened in his life, but after his life and then after a decade, and then after another decade, and he starts to see the impact of the story of Jesus, which, and I maybe it's a good time to transition into perspective, but you know, John's perspective when he wrote was that I not only saw what happened, but I saw how it impacted the world. I saw the how it flourished after he died, and I saw how it in how people changed and society changed after him. And that's and that's how he wrote it.

unknown: 14:40

Yeah.

David: 14:40

I think I think if you look at how people write, you know, if somebody passes away and they write something in the paper about it, it actually follows the same, the same, you know, way is Matthew is very much about the fulfillment of old time. So this is this is who this person was. And then they talk about their actions and their miracles. This is who their children are, their their wife is, things like that. And then you talk about their history. This is you know the things that they have done in the past. And then you look at their eternal life, their belief, their deity, and all that. Not that it's somebody's deity, but it's they're, you know, going to be here. They're going to be buried at this point. They're gonna have their it really follows kind of the same standard of of what these four gospels are showing as well, which is this old testament, you know, prophecy, the action and miracles, the compassion and history, and then ultimately the belief. That's really good.

Jason: 15:31

One of the things that I love is I I love how you just explained it as kind of an obituary, David. And that that that resonated really hardcore. Like, you know, if if if there's a really great person, I'm not gonna name anybody particularly, if there's a really great person, in the moment that they die, their obituary says they achieved all the things that they set out to achieve. This is who they were, right? That's the that's the obituary. The the the news story, you know, the the retro that they do on the news a year later is gonna be different. You know, yes, he did all those things, but this is what has happened since then. These are the people who, you know, that this whatever. But then you fast forward another, you know, 20 years and you do a retro on this person's life, and all of a sudden they're in a history book. You know, it's it's you know, this person did this and it impacted this, and the movement that came after it was this, and the people who changed were this, and that's like that's a really easy way for us to understand it in the present tense, I think. I think you bring you actually explained it a whole lot better than I did. I appreciate that. That was really good. No, no, no, I was I was just I was just riffing on yours. You started it.

Javi: 16:35

So I love that. I love that what you said, Jason. I think you brought a good point. I think it's one of the things that maybe we haven't spoken on, like what are these, right? These are the gospel is the good news, right? The good news of Jesus Christ and and you know what he did and what he came to earth to do and his his prop, you know, the prophecies fulfilled in so many ways. But also, what kind of books are these, right? These are the accounts of Jesus, right? These is this is not a poetic book, this is not a apostolic book. This is history. I would like to say this is an account, this is the eyewitness account of someone that saw something happen and then wrote it down. And I think that's important to know when when people read it and understand it, not this hyperbolic thing. I mean, there is some metaphors and other things in there that that happens, but yeah.

Jason: 17:22

I think that's an interesting point. Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead. You're probably just gonna switch it. I think that's an interesting point, Javi, because look, I mean, we've talked a lot in this podcast about metaphor and symbolism and those things. And I think those are I think those are more explicit in the gospels, right? Like when I mean Jesus himself speaks in parables much much of the time. And so it's very clear when Jesus meant for something to be a symbol, when he meant for it to be a metaphor, when he meant for it to be an allegory. You know, he did he did that on He did that on purpose. And so that does make the the Gospels a bit easier to understand than any other part of the Bible. And again, you could probably lift it up a level and and find symbolism and metaphor and analogy in the life of Jesus as well. But this I one of the things that makes these easier is like I said, they're just it's very clear what's supposed to be literal, what's supposed to be metaphorical, what's supposed to be a lesson, and what's supposed to be, you know, something that you reflect on.

Javi: 18:24

I wanted to say, like going back to a little bit when you said when you guys were talking about it being written so many years after, you know, one of the things that I kind of when I came across the gospels of just kind of reading the Bible, it's like, wait a minute, this is written, why is it written you know, 30 years after Jesus? Like, why not written then there? And I think you David did obviously did an episode recently just kind of explained that. If you want to reiterate that, J David, I think it was really done really well what you what you were explaining about you know how that came about, and not only that, other literature that we take as the Bible, like you know, and and like this is true. What happened to Alexander the Great in history books that is written way past what the Bible was maybe written.

David: 19:09

Yeah. Yeah, I just think listen, this is human nature. I think when you look at these different people, when you look at Caesar and him being written about hundreds of years later, I just think that what happens is typically when something is happening, people don't write about it, they write about it afterwards. This becomes history. You know, Jason just said that when somebody first dies, you go, hey, this this is the way they lived and this is how it was. And then a year or two later, then the story comes out, the the piece comes out about what how that impacted the world. And I think what happens is you have Jesus who impacted the world greater than any person in the face of this earth ever did. In all history. And at that point, in all history, and at that point it was written about and it needed to take effect. So, yes, we look at it and go, we need to read up read about Jesus. You know, why didn't somebody write about him at that time? Right, which by the way, they they definitely could have. Just because we haven't found it yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Right, right. Um, so finding one from 30 years past is an incredibly quick account of it, which makes it true. But um, it's not to say that we can't find one that's 10 years or five years or written during his life, right? But typically people are waiting and they're writing about the effect of what this did to the entire world. And that's why when you see 30 years later, you're going, man, this is so much quicker than every other historical figure that has ever lived. It is amazing. And I think people look at that and they try to trip you up and say, Oh, it took them so long. I'm like, no, they were writing about it while all the people that would have been there are still alive and could have said, Hey, that's not how it happened. Yeah.

Jason: 20:46

That's a bit they never did. Yeah, I mean, look, I I think Alexander the Great was like 400 years after he was ever written about, I mean, ever, ever lived, right? Literally, like the first writing we found is like 400 years after him, and yet nobody goes, Alexander the Great didn't exist. Not to mention, you know, one of the other things, and I'm again, I'm not a scholar on this, but it's a statistic I've heard one time, and I think it does it it helped me to put more validity in in the scriptures was that people go, Oh, yeah, but it's we don't have many copies of it. No, we have many, many copies of it. I think there's like 5,000 or something scriptural pieces, and you align them on top of each other, and they all align to a to a very, very large extent. And when you look like like Socrates, who we know we know existed, but yet we say, Did he? You know, Socrates was somebody who we don't actually have any actual writings from, but we know he does because we've because because of any number of reasons, but yet we have 5,000 from Jesus and we question whether he existed.

Javi: 21:38

You know, I think now that we we we understand that, we know that Jesus existed, right? We know that this is truth that people are claiming, and it's he I have no doubt. So now it's up to you to take it and go, Well, is that true? Let me look further. And when you look further, where are you looking for there? You should look at where the people that walk with him is. So you should go to the Bible and go to the to the actual accounts that present them as as a historic figure, and they say certain things, and up to you to really look further if if this is true now, what? Right, and I think that's a big thing that people fail to realize that Jesus is an historic figure, not only in the Bible and present them as that, but outside there's other writings, and David could, I mean, David could probably attest to that that there's other writings outside of the Bible that show Jesus as an historic figure through different historians, and we have to we have to, as people, is this true? Look further. If he it is true that Jesus did come, what did he say? How should we go about it? How could we take about it? You know, so to me, it's it's a big thing to to look at it that way, and I think the gospel presents it really well. Yeah, yeah.

David: 22:49

I mean, I think um Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Josephus, just to name three of them, those are all extra biblical accounts that you can look at. Um, I just want to kind of double back for a second. You know, I I know we were talking earlier about the obituary that Jason actually explained better than I did, but that was a kind of a simple explanation. I want to actually add some symbology and maybe a little bit more deeper of a conversation of the four gospels. You know, if you look at Ezekiel and you look at revelation, there are uh a creature with four heads.

Speaker 3: 23:19

Yeah.

David: 23:20

And if you look at those four heads, they actually relate really, really well to the four gospels as well. So if you look at the head of the lion, this would be Matthew. This is the lion of Judah, this is the king who reigns. If you look at Mark, that's the ox. This is now slain for salvation. This is the suffering servant. Luke would be the man who is full of compassion. This is history, man. And then John finally is the eagle who, again, now you're looking at divinity. This is soaring in the heavens, this is God. So when you look at the four creatures, it also relates perfectly to the four gospels and where each of them come from. I just want to put that out there as well. Just, you know, again, sometimes people think that this is an afterthought. God never does an afterthought. This is you know, this is something that was planned from the start, and and God does a beautiful way of putting that all together.

Jason: 24:12

Yeah, and and here's an interesting thing that I had not considered about that too. I mean, John wrote Revelation as well, right? Yes. Yeah. And John is one of the four gospel writers, but at the time he wrote it, he probably wouldn't have known that there were four other gospels. He he probably wouldn't have known that there, that these things existed. So he was, he was, you know, it wasn't like you can say, well, Revelation was written at the end. I think a lot of people, just especially not knowing the linear times of these things, would say, Well, John was written at the end, so clearly they know these other four things. But in fact, John wouldn't have, you know, John wouldn't have known any of those four things. There's no way he could have known that when he was writing Revelation and having his own revelation, right? Very true.

David: 24:50

So all right, so here we come. We're coming to that that point where we're going to name some of these things that seem as though, hey, these are so different in the gospels that there's something wrong. Not that, hey, there's four different accounts, which we've been talking about, but there's something wrong here. That somebody got it wrong, and this shows that it's not true, and they made a mistake or somebody copied it the wrong way. And if you don't mind, I'll kick it off with the first one, which is a biggie, and it's one that I hear a lot, which is during the crucifixion, the Romans had a practice of putting a placard up stating what the crime was, and they did that here as well. And when you read all four Gospels, they are read very differently. The account is very different. And what people say is this is a placard, this is something written. If you were gonna read it, it should read the same thing every time, and it shouldn't be different. But what you don't realize is these are written in different languages. You actually have Greek, Hebrew, and Latin written. So when you start to take this account and you go, hey, this was written written differently in each account, it's probably because they were reading it in their own language. Matthew was probably reading it in Hebrew, which you know, then it would have said, This is Jesus, the king of the Jews. If you were reading it in John, Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews. Uh, again, we look at it and go, What's the big deal? It's it's all the same. This is Jesus, King of the Jews, and the King of the Jews. That was the four different accounts. Right. It sounds exactly the same to us, but there are skeptics who look at it and go, if this was a sign, we would have had the exact same writings about it in all four. And what you realize is four different languages, you're going to get four different versions of it.

Jason: 26:37

Yeah. I think beyond that, you have something else you have to consider, which is that four different people see things four different ways. I mean, yeah, even in your example of the sign, if if somebody speaks, you know, is bilingual and speaks English and Spanish and they see a science in English and Spanish, they know when sometimes they're mistranslated, right? They might even acknowledge that, like they, you would never know, David, if if something was, you know, slightly mistranslated, even though it was just under, you're like, oh, that's the Spanish version. That just says that. But you wouldn't know if there was a slightly different translation. You wouldn't know if it said something slightly different. And then you have the English, you know, the American person or the English person who's speaking who's reading the English and not the Spanish. You have the Spanish person who's not reading the English, you have the bilingual person who's reading both. Um, and so, you know, perspective for for all good and all bad that it is, we are humans and we do exist in human bodies, and those are subject to perspective differentiations. And you know, you're gonna get those, you're gonna get those, those differences. You're gonna get those different accounts, despite the fact that the truth is actually somewhere in the center.

David: 27:40

That's a very good point.

Javi: 27:41

Yeah. I love the different perspective, and I think I wanted to also include this that we we mentioned before, maybe not to be to not to continue to repeat it, but just like the courtrooms, courtrooms will have different eyewitnesses to prove you know what happened that night or whatever it is, what happened to that person, just to kind of show what's going on. Is we do that in the courtroom, we do it to now to this day. Lawyers use different eyewitnesses to prove a certain um size to certain things. So I love this.

Jason: 28:11

Yeah, I again I go back to that idea of perspective, right? Like if you were to ask the three of us about the history of how this podcast came to be, you would get three very different stories. Yeah, you would get three different and and those stories could be influenced by a variety of things, you know. It could be influenced by the the things that I was going through at the time that you guys, you know, brought up this idea in the first place. Definitely means I have a perspective that's that's suited to that. I've I've said it before, I think that you know I had been praying previously, you know, use me, Lord, use me, Lord, the the song that gets me every time. Um and I had been like kind of singing it in church, but I'd also been coming home and praying it over and over and over, and then you guys asked to do that. So my it's very miraculous to me, very, you know, divinely inspired to me that you guys, without knowing that I'd been praying that would ask would ask that. You know, I'm sure you know you guys had conversations before I was ever even aware of it. So your history of it would be different, right? Your inspiration would be different. Your meaning that you ascribe to any individual experience would be different than mine. And again, I think that's what these gospels are about. It comes from different people who have from different walks of life, yeah, with different different experiences of how they came to know Christ, and their testimony is unique to them. And in no case is it wrong. In no case is it wrong. It is unique to them and their experience. And when we look at the gospels as written by people and not gospels um, you know, that are that are some perfect union of, you know, a group of corpor, you know, a corporate entity who is all decided on the same details. You know, yeah, if you read a textbook, you're gonna get something pretty homogenized. But these are written by individuals, and those individuals have perspectives.

David: 30:00

The last one I want to bring up just before we we close out because this is the biggie and I was hoping when he goes trying to get it.

Jason: 30:07

I was gonna let you hit it because it's a big one.

David: 30:10

Is there one angel or two uh when when the tomb was was empty? And also who gets there first? Who gets there first? Who gets there first? Yeah. And this is one, I mean, uh again, I think that Jason, you definitely hit it home with listen, different opinions, different people. This one seems to be, and this is one of the biggest ones that people really have a hang up over. And I'm gonna make a reference to The Matrix, okay, only because I love the movie, but there's a point at which Keanu Reese is walking and Lawrence Fishburne is talking to him, and he looks at the woman in red, and Lawrence Fishburne says, Were you paying attention or were you looking at the woman in red?

Speaker 3: 30:47

Yeah.

David: 30:48

And it was only because Keanu Reeves' focus went on something completely different than where Lawrence Fishburne's focus was. Yes. And I think that this is that moment where there could very well have been two angels in the tomb. The account was somebody here, you look at Matthew and Mark, they have it as one angel. Yeah, they were focused on the one angel speaking, where you have, you know, Luke and John saying there were two there. They're not saying that there wasn't one just speaking, they're just saying, hey, there were two in the room. Yeah. Where Matthew and Mark are saying, yes, there might have been two in the room, but we're only focusing on the one who's actually doing the speaking. So I think it's worth, I think it's a focus thing more than a difference thing.

Jason: 31:31

I think so too. I mean, that's what I was saying about perspective, right? Like if if if I get there and I am so blown away by everything going on, and that I get hyper focused, I it's very possible I miss some crazy. You ever seen those videos, by the way? Have you ever seen those videos where it's like count the amount of times that we dribble the basketball?

Javi: 31:50

Yes, with the gorilla.

Jason: 31:51

This is crazy. I I I'm gonna give it away for anybody who hasn't seen it before, but they'll but there's this thing where they they they say count the amount of times that these people dribble basketballs. And you're sitting there focused on counting the basketball. And then at the very end, it says it says, Did you see the gorilla walk by the back? And you're like, there is no possible way a gorilla walked by the screen and I didn't see it. And then you watch the video back and there was a gorilla in the back. This is a true, this is a real thing, and it sounds ridiculous until you do it. And if you've ever done it, I hope that you remember that feeling in this moment because it's very easy to miss very basic stuff or very in intense stuff when you're hyper focused on something else. And I think that's just one of those examples of it's us humans.

David: 32:34

Yeah, I love that. I have not seen that video, but I actually know that from sorry. No, I I actually know this there's a training that they do, and I'm sure for FBI and things like that, which is very similar, it's about focus. And you'll have somebody come in the room during a speech, and they will hand them some a piece of paper and they'll walk out. And then after the speech is done, they'll say, What color was that person and shirt wearing? Yeah, and all that. And it's it's really cool when when the brain does that.

Jason: 33:00

It's also very it's also very dishearten it's also very disheartening when the brain does that because you realize how much how much we don't control. But again, we we have to realize that these were written by people, right? We have to realize that these were written by people, and we also have to trust in God's sovereignty and that you know he he had all this happen for a reason and he allowed them to pay attention or something because there's a message in all of them for somebody. And so, you know, I I but I I found it really I used to struggle a lot with that angel thing too, until that gorilla thing. And then I was like, man, it's very possible. I mean, you can you can stare right at it and not see it because it's not where your focus is.

Javi: 33:34

Yeah. I think the value of all this is like going back, it's what what matters and what even though it was tough, but what matters is Jesus was an historic figure that said certain truths and he made some certain truth claims, and and if you believe in that, then for him is he came to the world to save us, right? To give us salvation. He died and resurrected and instilled us with the Holy Spirit. And I think that's what matters, and that that narrative does not change from the beginning of the Bible to the end of the Bible. And I think that's what you know, sometimes we could get hung up on these, like you know, these things, but um not to say that our thing and what we're talking about is not warranted. I think it's good for us to discuss this, but you know, when we really look at it, we have a God that loves us, came to the earth, you know, gave us salvation, and he left us with the Holy Spirit, he's with us. But I think you mentioned that, David, in one of your episodes last week or so. You know, God is with us. The Ark of the Covenant, we might not need it anymore because he is still with us. I mean, his name itself, right? Is it Emmanuel? Or what that means God has. God with us. Yep. Yeah. And I love that. And I think that's the beauty of what we're reading right now in the gospel and the Bible itself.

Jason: 34:47

Yeah, I I totally agree. I mean, that's that's the important part, right? We we get so we're humans and we look for flaws, and we we find these little minor, you know, variations, and we we stop paying attention to what is the consistency. The consistency is that he was that that he was divine, that he was part God and part man, that he did miracles, that he showed us how to live, and that he died on the cross for our sins and was resurrected. I mean, no, that's the the that's the consistency. And, you know, one other thing, and this might be a little left field, but it's something that I heard one time that really helped me, and it was like the finality that I needed to like get over these little things was that it's all the same story, and yet imagine if you were to take somebody's story and put every story on a note card and put it up on a wall, right? The story is the story, it doesn't change. I can't tell you the whole story, and I've got a short period of time to do it. So I'm gonna pull the note cards that that work in order to tell the story I need to tell. So I might pull these 10, 12, 15 note cards and then tell you that story across those. Somebody else might pull another, you know, six or twelve from another side and tell those stories. And and again, like I said, it's it's not that it's a different story, it's that it's told from a different perspective. It's told in a dip in sometimes even a different order, but it is nonetheless the same story.

Javi: 36:08

I love it because John John 20 says that. John 20 says, let me explain that right. John 20, 30-31 says, Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. There are so many other things that maybe he did that we did not know, that we don't know he did, or you know, other miracles, other things that he probably said. It's only it's finite. We're just as finite as much as these books are, these the pages in the books, right? So I love that you said that, Jason. I think that's a good point.

David: 36:41

I I'll tell you just to uh kind of reiterate, but also on my perspective, I I'm finishing the steps of authoring my own book, right? And I can't tell you how many times I've gone back and wanted to change it. And I was I was thinking about what you said about you know some of these apostles and and the writer, the gospel writers, and and think about them going, you know, how many times, you know, if they come back today and go, man, I missed that detail, it wasn't done, you know, with any intention other than they're trying to write everything down. And there are times you can revise and revise, and it'll, you know, I think about my own testimony, and it's my testimony, it's happened in my life, and I've told it differently every single time I've told my testimony. Absolutely, absolutely.

Jason: 37:23

Yeah, what a what a point, what a point. Yeah, guys, this is this has been enlightening for me. Um, and it continues to be a form of worship for me to look at these gospels and to remind myself of their importance, to remind myself of their truth, and to remind myself of of the good news, right? The good news of Jesus, that that he has died on the cross and resurrected for our sins so that we can be saved because we can't do it by ourselves. So I I love listening to this, I love talking about it. And I hope that if anybody out there has struggled with the gospel's variations, that this has helped to clarify that for you. So I really do appreciate everybody listening. As always, we love to hear your comments, we love to hear your your feedback. And if we can ever be of any help to you in any way, please reach out. And we look forward to talking to you again next week. Thank you very much, guys. See you guys. Bye.