Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome to the Boundless Bible. My name is David Shapiro, hey, I'm Javi Marquez and I'm Jason Holloway. Hey guys, excited to be with you today. I'm actually going to start off a little bit different than we've done before. I'm going to ask you guys a quick question, not one of my famous quick questions. A quick question about our study today. When you think of Jonah, do you see it more of a story running from God or a story about God's relentless mercy?

Speaker 3: 0:31

Oh, that's good Before I copy. I see it as God's relentless, or pretty much God's grace. I don't think it's running away from God. He's running away from God's mission and what God wants him to do, I feel like, but not running away from God. He's always present with God, he's always talking to God. Jonah, that is the character. So, yeah, I just think it's God's relentlessness, if that's a word. But yeah, I just see God just carving out the way of turning bad to good, like he always does.

Speaker 2: 1:14

I see it as all of the above. This is one of the most fascinating stories to me. I think it's a story of running away from your mission. It's a story of trying to run away from god, uh, which is absurd. The inability to run away from god, uh, and the almost inevitability of god's will being done whether you like it or not if you guys can see my notes, you would see right now that I actually called out both of those.

Speaker 1: 1:38

I knew you guys were going to answer that exact way. Um, I, I did, and although I agree that I believe it's both, it's obviously a story about both. I also do see it as this relentless mercy from God and I'm definitely excited to jump into this story with you guys. We're going to set the stage really, really quickly for this story. This is a story of a prophet, jonah, who was told by God to go to Nineveh, and Jonah does not want to go, and I'm giving the very quick overview. Obviously we're going to dive in a lot deeper, but he doesn't want to. He actually tries to go as far away as humanly possible. The opposite direction God stops him, brings him to Nineveh, he gives the world's worst sermon and then he learns a lesson at the very end. So with that in mind, let's jump into the first part, which is what is Nineveh? Can either of you guys tell me, kind of, what Nineveh looks like, what it is?

Speaker 2: 2:38

To my understanding, nineveh is the Assyrian capital. It's enormous, it's almost an empire in and of itself and, as we'll find later, it's kind of Sodom and Gomorrah, part two. God's you know will, or under his law, and he's frustrated with them and he's about to get rid of them, which is why he wants to send Jonah to go have them repent, so he doesn't have to. But yeah, so Nineveh is a huge city, it's an empire in itself.

Speaker 3: 3:19

I read that it was built by Nimrod. Nimrod, I think we did a quick brief name, that's right. I forgot which episode was it. I think Babel, right, or something. Yep, yeah, I think so. Where Nimrod is this big guy, this big, just kind of strong kind of guy? And yeah, I've read that he built this.

Speaker 1: 3:43

Nineveh, yep. So the Assyrian Empire is definitely known for their brutality, their violence, injustice, child sacrifice. This was a city of blood is one of the nicknames it had. It was a crown jewel of the Assyrian Empire and this is where God wanted Jonah to go, and he said I want you to go. And he didn't really give a lot of details to it, but Jonah knew. Jonah knew hey, I want to go. God wants me to go there because he's looking for me to help these people and and to help them be forgiven and be right in God's eyes, and this is something that Jonah was very much against is something that Jonah was very much against. So, just for the purposes of knowing where things are, god called him to go to Nineveh, which is right around the Tigris River. It's where Iraq would be today, and what he tried to do is go to Tarshish, which would have been around where Spain is.

Speaker 2: 4:43

So this is-.

Speaker 3: 4:44

Opposite yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:47

And at this point this is pretty much the furthest that you could have gone in the known world where he was. He was saying hey, I'm not just going far away, I'm going as far away as I humanly can. Yeah, and he jumped on a boat and and did just that and started his way as far away as possible and it was like a random boat at a port.

Speaker 3: 5:08

what I read and it's funny because obviously he was Hebrew and he jumped on this boat. I mean I don't know how common it was for him to be on a boat with other different nations or different people that believe in different things. I mean they showed that these guys believed in different gods, so for them to spend this time together. So I'm not sure there's anything there. David, within how much he just despised this mention, this mission, and how much he doesn't want to do this work for God. It's so interesting to me.

Speaker 2: 5:41

But I think what you're saying is like is there any thing to note in the fact that he was willing to get on a boat full of heathens to cross the, to cross the known ocean, to get?

Speaker 3: 5:50

away from, or gentiles right, I want to say he, but yeah, no, there wasn't they don't.

Speaker 1: 5:55

They don't, uh, give specifics as to what gods, uh, these sailors were praying to when the storm came. Um, so we're not sure if it was an enemy a known enemy of Israel. If it was not, so, there was nothing there per se. There could have been I'm sure there's research on it, but there was nothing glaring, except for the fact that you're right. When this storm came, these sailors were praying to their own gods, trying to figure out what is on the ship that is causing them to be upset.

Speaker 1: 6:25

And again you start looking at this wonderful piece of evidence of what religions were back then and also why God was wholly set apart, because these other gods there were multiple of them, these had control over the ocean and they were upset at some reason. And these were people trying to control their own fate by pleasing a god who was causing this storm. Uh, meanwhile it was yahweh, uh, and jonah was asleep, but as soon as he woke up, he knew he said this is, this is for me, and he went to jump overboard. He's like, hey, I'll jump overboard. Which, if you have people who traveled back then by water, they were not afraid of storms like this, so if they saw him jumping off, they would have thought what are you crazy stay on a boat.

Speaker 1: 7:18

This is what we go through. We go through storms. This is a really bad one where now we're nervous right and jonah's going no, I'm just gonna jump right in. Uh, which they knew was death and they didn't want.

Speaker 3: 7:29

They didn't want him to do that. I mean, they prayed against their, they prayed before. But he asked him to jump to throw them. Throw them in, throw him in, right. Jonah asked hey, throw me in.

Speaker 2: 7:40

It's, it's my god, you know, and you guys would be good and they wouldn't right and they like.

Speaker 3: 7:44

I don't want to do that. I don't want to throw you in. Okay, maybe he was like resistant, like Jonah is, or just maybe stubborn, and they were like, all right, let me just pray, let me pray before I throw you out there, because I don't want anything coming back to me that I just killed a man and you know, let him drown or whatever it is, and let him drown or whatever it is, and I think that just shows what Jonah was so afraid of this mission or didn't believe in this mission that God was sending him, that he went on this boat with some random Gentiles getting away from God, going to Tarshish, away from the mission that he wants to go towards. It's like the opposite end. And for him to go, you know what, just throw me over. I'd rather just die than do this.

Speaker 1: 8:28

And what happens is he almost drowns, he is thrown in and almost drowns, and then something grabs him and swallows him and and I'm going to bring that to you, jason, because you mentioned, uh before that a lot of people think it's one thing, but it actually is not yeah, I mean, you know, we always hear, hear Jonah and the whale, right, but yet it doesn't say whale In Hebrew, it says big fish, you know.

Speaker 2: 8:49

So not a life-altering thing to learn, but I mean it's just interesting. I think it is interesting to recognize when we've been culturized over a word versus, you know, when that's not what it ever said. So sometimes you have to check the origin source and remember what you're really reading. But yeah, it's not a, it's a big fish, it's a big fish and, and to my knowledge, even at the time there wasn't or to what I read, I think there there wasn't even a fish capable of being that large to swallow a man.

Speaker 1: 9:17

To their not to their knowledge at the time is that true, it is true, and it's also true that that I think words do matter. Uh, jewish people at the time reading this story would have read great fish. They would not have read whale, they wouldn't even have thought whale. So you're right, the culture has definitely shifted that narrative. They would have heard fish and that would have made it even more amazing for them to hear that a great fish that should not have been there, that was not capable of swallowing a man swallow them up, because Because we look at a whale and we go, oh, of course we've seen, you know National Geographic, and a whale will come and swallow Jonah and no big deal. But then it meant a lot more and I agree with you, jason, I think the words do matter.

Speaker 2: 10:00

And I would even go so far. Look, the fish becomes even more important because, David, you're the one who enlightened me the first time as to what the fish meant to these people of Nineveh.

Speaker 1: 10:09

Yes, so, and we will get further into that, but you just because you touched on it. So there was a God in Nineveh called Dagon, and Dagon was a fish man that devoured doves. They fed doves to their god, dagon. And if you look at Jonah's name, his name literally means dove in Hebrew. So you have a dove being spit out by a great fish. To the people who believe in a man who devours doves, it's just a fishman. So this is the people of Nineveh. I mean, mean, god knows what he's doing. Uh, he knew he was sending and these people would have looked at jonah, uh, with a certain amount of of reverence. Again, they believed in multiple gods, they did worship multiple gods. They would have looked at him and said this might be dagon right here. This might be the, the fish man who is eating doves. So, yes, um, but but before he gets spit out, it's this really interesting thing I want to touch on um, he is inside the belly of the whale, or the great fish for three days.

Speaker 1: 11:15

See, I did it right there it's. It's so ingrained, yeah, it's so ingrained, um, but he is inside of the great fish for three days and he, he kind of reminds us of Psalms a little bit when he starts to lament and talk about the fact that he almost died and what that felt like and then giving thanks to God. Again, we were talking about God's relentless mercy, god's mercy for saving him, um, but, but even more importantly, um, there is a comparison of Sheol with the uh, with the Exodus, the time of the Exodus. So when Exodus, the last plague, happens, when it's darkness, not not the very last one, the the finger of God, but right before that there's darkness and it's not a really scary. You have all these horrible things happening All of a sudden. There's darkness. But it says darkness, you can feel it's a little bit different.

Speaker 1: 12:06

A lot of scholars think that this was Sheol, that God brought Sheol down for people to experience. And Jonah talks about him being in Sheol right now and he's in the fish in darkness. It's something that he can feel and he's comparing this with almost seeing what it's like to be dead. Hey, I'm throwing myself over, I'd rather be dead and God in his brilliance goes okay, here's what it's like, and it's really powerful. I think there are a lot of people who have gone through similar experiences who have they're at the end of the rope, they feel like it'd be better if I wasn't even here, and then they have an experience and go. You know what?

Speaker 1: 12:47

I was wrong and thank you God for showing me that.

Speaker 2: 12:50

Yeah, I mean, look, we've. We've been talking a lot about the story, but I mean the symbolism here is I mean I think you guys knew I was going here. I mean this whole story is intensely symbolic to me. I mean, let's, let's just cover. We won't even cover the rest of it, let's cover from this point in past.

Speaker 2: 13:14

He is. First of all, you have to know that he loves the Lord and trusts the Lord, because when the Lord gives him a mission to save his enemies, he goes nope, other way. Like you know, he is given. He runs the other way, not because he doesn't want the mission, because God gave it to him, because he doesn't like these people. Yes, he doesn't believe that these people deserve forgiveness. He doesn't believe in that. And he goes the other direction not because he's running from God, because he's running from his mission.

Speaker 2: 13:36

Right, and I think that's a really big thing. It's like I think we all know, when God has told us to do something we don't want to do and we don't go, yeah sure, let's do that we go the other direction. Often, in fact, we move in opposition to God because we want to have control, because we want to believe that we're the ones who are in control. And then God takes him off the boat and puts him in the fish and he's in Sheol, he's in hell, he is in darkness, he is claustrophobic, he is. You know what is the thing? Sometimes you see heaven most clearly in dark places, and I think that this thing could be an analogy or a metaphor for any dark place you've been in your life, whether it be, you know, an action that you're taking you don't want to take, whether it's being a way that you don't want to be, whether it's a relationship that isn't going the way you want it to.

Speaker 2: 14:35

There's a dark place, right, and this is significant and, interestingly enough, when I read through it this week, chapter two hit me very differently this time, when I was really thinking about it that way. It's a beautiful. They call it a prayer, but I think it's a poem. I think it's a poem. I mean, I was reading it this time and I was like, just put yourself in one of your dark times in life and read that poem and you realize, I don't know. You see yourself in it, you see that like you have taken me to the bottom of the ocean, you have put me behind the bars and yet you have also. You've also let me come back and let me be free, and I thank you for this and I glorify you for this. I don't know, it's a beautiful thing. So anyway, sorry I went on a tangent there, but I mean that's-.

Speaker 3: 15:21

I was gonna mention what I read about it being maybe more of a symbolism, stuff like that, and you could see that. You could really see that in chapter 2 and just kind of reading the poetry, the prayer, you could see that in like the big fish, you know even that, like the mysteriousness of that or how things played out Israel was. So this is going a little bit ahead, but more of the arching story that Israel has a favorite relationship with God and his unwillingness to share the Lord's compassion with other nations. So we could see that Jonah you know it's Jonah is the vessel like Israel that doesn't want to share the goodness of God with other nations, where maybe that's what's going on at the time and we see that throughout the Bible. It's one story of how God's love, mercy and grace is for all, but he's doing it through Israel.

Speaker 1: 16:17

Yeah, jason, just to go back to your analogy of the poem, know what's really? What's incredible for me is he is not in a safe place. I mean, obviously it's safer than him being in the water in a storm. Uh, but he's not in a safe place and he's giving this wonderful prayer and poem to god and then thanking him before he was spit out. This is I'm in this dark place and I'm still giving you the praise.

Speaker 2: 16:55

And it's the reason he got out. This is the important thing. As soon as he finishes his prayer, then the whale spits him out, so he didn't pray after he got spit out. He prayed when and again. This is the significance of this story.

Speaker 2: 17:08

Right, like we I always say like we all know what it's like to be in a dark place, and maybe I'm wrong about that, but I think many people do I think many people know what it's like to be in a low, low part of your life and a part where you have lost control, where you realize that your ability to control the situation is limited, if not completely null. And in that moment you can either give up and stay in the belly of the whale or you can pray and you can see that there's something bigger than you out there. You can remember that this is a temporary condition and with prayer and thankfulness and giving your, by the way, the end of the prayer is I give glory to you. I hope that my next moves give glory to you, Something along those lines.

Speaker 2: 17:53

That's a paraphrase, and that's when God says okay, you get it, you're out, and this is what we have to do too. It's like when you're in the deepest parts of those wells. You have to praise God and say I see that I was wrong, I see that you're right, I'm going to follow you and I'm going to do it with the right intentions. And then, amazingly, the fish spits you out. It's just the way it works, right. It's one of the most human things to experience.

Speaker 1: 18:17

And amazingly good hobby.

Speaker 3: 18:19

No, jonah has a lot there. I think this book has four chapters and it's an easy read, but there's a lot of depth there and a lot of things that you're bringing out, jason, but also there's a lot of other things. You know symbolism, you know. To me there's a lot of like Jesus in this story too A hundred percent.

Speaker 1: 18:36

But yeah, yep, going further, jason. You know it's not only dark times he's going through. It is a lesson of beforehand. He was, he felt like he was in the light. He didn't want to share that with somebody else. So he was saying, hey, I'm good, they're not again comparison, comparing sin. He goes into a dark place and then realizes, hey, I'm not as holy and great as I thought, right. And then he's going you know what I'm going to submit to God's plan and then get spit out as well. So it's this also beautiful thought of. We do it all the time, thinking, well, my sin's not as bad as that one.

Speaker 1: 19:17

And then all of a sudden you realize and go no, it's all sin is sin and it's all bad. So I just have to follow God.

Speaker 2: 19:23

I love that you brought that up. I love that you brought that up because that's not something that crossed my mind previously. But you're 100% right. He was so busy thinking himself perfect and deserving and so I don't want to give it to them because they don't deserve it. Well, god's asking you to do something, he goes no, I'm not doing that. Like. Both are sins, both are sins, all sin is equal. So Both are sins. Both are sins, all sin is equal. So you've just committed the sin of A pride, b thinking you're better than somebody else, and C not being obedient while you're condemning this, other people who are doing. Obviously, the sins are different, but it's a reminder that sin is sin. It's a reminder that sin doesn't necessarily, at least by God's standards sin doesn't have levels, there's just sin and not sin.

Speaker 1: 20:10

I had not even considered that and he does something that's also very human. Right after, which I love is, even after sometimes we admit that sin is sin, we still are like almost like little children, going fine, fine, you're right, I'm going to go and do what you want. And then he goes and gives the worst sermon ever. He says five words and that's it. It's not like, hey, I'm, I understand what you're saying and I'm going to go there, I'm going to do the best I can. He goes. No, I understand what you're saying. I'm going to do the bare minimum because I'm, I'm he pouted?

Speaker 2: 20:36

through the whole thing. I'm pouting, he pouted through the whole thing. Well, god's going to kill you 40 days, you're going to die and they're all going. Guys, everybody, stop what you're doing, put on sackcloths, fast Pray, yeah. So I mean it was the most effective five words, maybe in Assyrian history.

Speaker 1: 20:54

And it's interesting because the five words to get the exact translation, I'm going to read it. Yet, 40 days and Nineveh shall be overturned. And when you look at it, it's also God's beautiful way of wording, because overturned could mean destroyed, which is what Jonah would have said hey, you're gonna get killed, and he's probably a little smug about it. But it also could mean transformed, which is God's version of it 40 days or you're gonna be. And it's in God's fashion. Beautifully, they transformed the entire nation of Nineveh, transformed.

Speaker 3: 21:31

And I think that shows God's consistent character In Jeremiah 18, 7 to 10, it goes if at any time, I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, tore down or destroyed, and if that nation, I warn, repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it disaster that I had planned. So God is consistent. So he wanted them to repent. There was obviously some Sodom and Gomorrah stuff going on over there and he's like hey, I'm going to give you, just like I did them, time to repent. I'm going to send my prophet to you, jonah, to tell you to repent and you must do so, if not I'm going to destroy you 40 days, I guess. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:14

Yeah, yeah, I mean, look, I think that this is one of those stories too and I'm glad you brought up that, jeremiah, because I've been thinking a lot lately, just separately from this, but it was really tied together with this is that God's nature doesn't change, but God can change his mind based on your actions. Right, and so it's conditionality is what I've been like really kind of like processing lately. It's like, you know, I grew up in a church where God is sovereign and you know God's will is going to be done, which means everything that happens on earth is already predestined. You have no choice in the matter, so forth and so on. But the Bible has a very clear way of saying look, if these guys hadn't, if they hadn't changed, now that's not to say sovereignty I'm not going to get into a sovereignty conversation because I know there's deep details in there but this is a clear condition that had they not repented, they were getting destroyed.

Speaker 2: 23:14

I mean, they ultimately chose to repent and they were not destroyed, but they had. They also had the choice don't repent and be destroyed or overturned. However, that is right. But so I and I and I think that's really interesting in in this as well is looking at our human responsibility in our own destinies. Obviously you have to follow God's will to find that best destiny. But God has a plan for you, but that plan changes if you don't follow your part of the plan. Yeah, and I found that to be an interesting part of the story as well. I don't know what you guys think about that no-transcript.

Speaker 2: 23:43

I don't know what you guys think about that?

Speaker 1: 23:44

No, it goes along with your thinking.

Speaker 3: 23:46

It reminds me back of just Moses and the—we always go back to Moses the Israelites in the desert. Right, I think God has a limit. He's really slow and patient. He takes his time. He sends birds. Messages, messengers, counselors message everything to you to repent to turn away.

Speaker 2: 24:09

Which Jonah says. Which Jonah says literally in this book. He says you are slow to anger. You are those things, yeah.

Speaker 3: 24:14

So we see that there and I think God is. That's why I love. I love jumping into this stuff and just speaking about God, because you know, it's one of the things that I always makes me fall to my knees and just cry out to God and just thank him for being slow to anger with me and just letting me just forgiving me pretty much of a lot of things that I've done in the past or continue to do sometimes. But God is good. Yeah, no, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: 24:41

Your theory makes sense. I mean, you've talked about it with prayer as well, where, with prayer, it's as much about us and us changing as it is trying to change God, and I think it blends with your already theological thought of, yes, god is there, he is sovereign, he does know, but he is also allowing us to be part of the details. And the part of the details is are we going to accept, are we not going to accept? I think it's this beautiful blend. Most people like to think of it one way or another. Is it free will or predestination? And the chance? Probably it's a blend of both. God does not allow one or the other. I think he allows both, and I think that your theology just matches exactly what you've said about other things in the past as well, so it makes perfect sense.

Speaker 2: 25:28

This is just one of those stories and, Javi, I'm sorry I got to cut you off there, but I thought it was really. It was really fascinating point. I mean, you know, Jonah knows that, Jonah knows that God is slow to anger and that his love is, you know, ever present and large. You know, and he says so in this thing. Which is why. Which is why he says I don't want to.

Speaker 3: 25:47

He says it flat out I don't want these people to get saved, because I know you'll save them, yeah, even after he did, after he did it, and then he, and then he went, and then he went and pouted for a while he still pouted jonah. He's like I'm gonna sit right here and we'll watch to see what happens to the city. He says jonah, four or five yeah, four, five through 11.

Speaker 1: 26:03

Four, five, yeah. It is Jonah literally getting angry again. And then God teaches him another lesson, another lesson that's filled with symbolism, but also just a beautiful lesson of. It is a hot wind blowing and the sun is on him and God says I'm going to build a shade for you and this wonderful plant that shades Jonah. Um, and then God sends a worm to eat the plant and Jonah gets so hot he almost passes out. Um, and God asked him a question and he said you know you're angry about this tree, but you weren't angry about the a hundred thousand people that you were looking for me to ignore. Yeah, um, it's just, it's, it's just amazing. And then there was a mic drop moment because and we'll talk about it but he literally does this, says it and then it ends. That's it.

Speaker 1: 26:59

The whole book ends, yeah just and it's left for the reader to go uh.

Speaker 2: 27:05

So I'm curious what you guys took from that last, particularly that last part. I had a lot of thoughts when I was reading it this time and I was curious what you guys take from that. Ending of the plant grows. I shaded you from the plant. I ate the plant. I made you realize something. Then I asked you a question, Then I stopped. What did you guys take out of that?

Speaker 3: 27:24

Well, I guess maybe I read it wrong, but when I first read it I thought about I'm trying to remember the story, but just God saying, reminding us that you have no control, Like it's not up to you right, Like you didn't make this plant grow or die, you didn't do anything about this, you had no part to play in this. I'm just asking you to do this. Whether you think it's good or bad, just follow me and do it. So that's what I got out of it and he showed him through that symbolism, through the pant, going hey, you didn't make it grow, you didn't make it wither. What are you angry about? You have nothing. I'm the one that has the power. Just kind of trust me. That's what I'm, what I was getting.

Speaker 1: 28:07

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 28:08

For me it's the complete opposite.

Speaker 1: 28:09

I think he puts all of it in our court. I think he's looking for us to look inward at ourselves. I mean, we talked about it. We talked about how Jonah is looking at one sin worse than another. Then he's starting to admit the truth, and then he goes and gives the worst sermon because he's still throwing a little bit of a hissy fit. And then, you know, you go on and on and on, and then, even after he does it, he's still bitter. And then he gets comfort from a tree shade, and then he gets mad when he gets, when it's devoured. And you know, I think it leaves it up for us.

Speaker 1: 28:38

God is going here, the ball's in your court. What do you think? What are you going to do next? Are you going to learn from this story? Because we can look at it and go. You know, god, use me as a prophet. I read this story and say you know what? God, maybe you want to use the next guy? Um, this is, this is not. You know, this is not something I want to sign up for, although I would, um, but but I think that this is all about us. He's leaving it open for us to really do exactly what we're doing here dive in and chew on it.

Speaker 2: 29:12

Yeah, I mean because, look, I blend exactly the two things that you guys said right into a middle ground. I think that God is telling you clearly it ain't your game to play. You don't understand it. There are things that you are incapable of doing. You can't make a tree grow a worm bite. You can't do any of those things. However, you have a role to play in it, so you still.

Speaker 2: 29:34

It goes back to what I was talking about a moment ago. I mean, it goes back to this conditionality and God's will, free will and ultimate outcome essentially is what that final statement is about, which, by the way, I think is, if you look at it literarily, that's what the whole story was about from the first time. They were just making sure that you got it. At the end the whole story was about. The whole entire story can be summed up by that. It's an exploration of God's will, man's free will and the interplay of those two in creating ultimate outcomes that are still part of God's plan, love it and so, and that's the whole. That's literally the whole story. So I find that, I find that really, I found that last line exceptionally interesting. This or that last, you know few lines.

Speaker 3: 30:21

It's exceptionally interesting this time around To go back and kind of like circle back a little bit.

Speaker 3: 30:26

Going back, I feel like there's a lot of symbolism with Jesus and I mentioned that before to David and, just like kind of combining what you're saying right now, jason, it's Jesus came for us to forgive us pretty much, and we see that we see a similarity with Jesus and Jonah, right, right, he was in the whale for three days and three nights.

Speaker 3: 30:49

Um matthew 12 40 talks about jesus going into the. Just like jonah, he went into the belly of the huge fish and the son of man will be there for three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Right, and he came out of that. And then in Luke 24, 46, it talks about the Messiah will suffer in the third day and repentance and for the forgiveness of the sins will be preached in his name to all the nations. That's what Jonah did. He was in the belly for three days, came out in three days to go make this nation go repent and then they will be forgiven and they will not be destroyed. I think it's just a continuous pattern To a bunch of people who didn't deserve it.

Speaker 3: 31:29

It's a pattern that we always talk about.

Speaker 2: 31:31

Yeah, well, to a bunch of people who didn't deserve it.

Speaker 1: 31:33

Yeah, didn't deserve it. And that's the and speaking of pattern, I mean just for the history of Nineveh. They ended up going back on their ways later on and was destroyed regardless.

Speaker 3: 31:41

Yeah, they were destroyed anyway, yeah.

Speaker 2: 31:43

Yet another pattern. But look, the thing is, they were destroyed later, but after they had done what they needed to do in God's larger plan, which was because later they destroyed Jerusalem or Judah I think it was Judah. They destroyed one of those two cities as a payment for Israel not being faithful again. So they acted as an instrument of God later and then, after they had done their duty, god was like all right, now you're gone because you continue to not repent. But the other thing to say too, I mean I love, look, I think you're right, javi. I think there's a lot of connection there between the Jesus story and Jonah, and I think it was such a great setup for that, and that's what these prophets do, right. The prophets are so good at setting up Jesus so that when Jesus would come, you could point back to the Old Testament and go it was there already.

Speaker 3: 32:36

I'm not doing anything different.

Speaker 2: 32:37

And so you get that. That's what it is right? It wasn't supposed to be a surprise for you. That's what God's saying. I'm not doing anything different.

Speaker 3: 32:42

The Israel, you know, the Israel nation.

Speaker 2: 32:43

It wasn't supposed to be a surprise.

Speaker 3: 32:44

Yeah, it wasn't a surprise for you. It was there all along and supposed to be the Messiah, is here, he's with you. I've done this and I think he has a lot of symbolism talking about Moses and Noah, just kind of reminding them like, hey, this is not a situation, it shouldn't be a shock to you.

Speaker 2: 33:07

Right and we know that God's consistent right. We did a whole episode on God's consistency. God is consistent and when Jesus comes and Jesus is doing the same things that have been mimicked previously, it's just another way of saying look at, my fingerprints have been here the whole time. The fact that it's expressed through a different person, the fact that it's expressed in a different arena even doesn't make it any different.

Speaker 3: 33:31

And yeah man, I hadn't thought about that either. I really hope that.

Speaker 1: 33:39

I have a really good question. I don't know if you have anything else, david, but I have one more uh, but that was just about the the, the last, the mic drop moment at the end. Oh yeah, I wanted to ask um.

Speaker 3: 33:46

Well, let me drop you guys. Have you guys ever uh, ever been or acted like jonah, where god has called you for a mission to do something and you kind of went, nah, I, I'm good, dad, I'm gonna go over here, kind of thing, and maybe you did? I'm really glad you asked that question.

Speaker 2: 34:03

I'm really glad you asked that question.

Speaker 2: 34:07

I hadn't found a way to kind of like fold this in yet. But look, I think this again going back to that story of metaphor and what this can teach people how can we practically place this in our lives? Look, I think we all have something to say, and oftentimes it's about God, or I mean it could be about anything right. Or we have a calling from God go do this thing, go follow this path, go do the right thing. There's so many things we are called to do. We are called to say we have an inspiration to give to the world and do for the world, and we don't. And the consequence of not doing that is darkness.

Speaker 2: 34:53

The consequence of not speaking your truth or following God's path, or following the path that has been set inside you is darkness. It is. It's like I'm trying to find the words for it but it's like having your hands tied behind your back and you feel stifled. That's the word, right. You feel stifled. What would it feel like being in a big fish? You'd be stifled, right. So I mean, I think, even from a human level, this story is a reminder that if you are called to do something, if you feel strongly inspired to do something, do it. You don't have to trust in your own ability. You don't have to trust that it's the right thing to do. We've seen this in person after person in the Old Testament that they're not ready, they don't think they can do it. And yet the consequence of not doing the thing you don't think you can do is way worse than the consequence of doing the thing that you want.

Speaker 3: 35:41

If it means for good too, I think you can discern that right you have to you know you have to discern those things of how to approach that.

Speaker 3: 35:47

And I think, when you see you feel like God calling me to do that or not, test it. Is it good? Is it good for somebody else to know about God? Is it good for them for you to, like, I don't know, give them money Because you have that extra 20 bucks that you just found? It's stuff like that. Like yeah, that is good, it's not going to hurt them, type of thing. It's a way to discern and a secondary point.

Speaker 2: 36:12

Sorry guys and Javi, that's a great point too. Sometimes the thing that you want to do might not be good for you. This wasn't good for Noah. Noah didn't go in here, or Noah, jonah didn't go in here, all the O's and A's and N's. Jonah didn't go in there and get something out of it. Remember that, guys. Jonah did a great job. Jonah saved 120,000 people, right? He literally saved them and generations after them, and yet he got nothing out of it.

Speaker 1: 36:42

He didn't get that. He didn't. He got shade. No, actually he got a plant put over.

Speaker 2: 36:45

He got shade for a minute. He got for a minute he got shade and then the shade got taken down because he hadn't earned it. Like so this is another point. Like, not always is the thing that you being called to do for you, but you got to do it anyway, man.

Speaker 1: 36:59

I'll tell you that if I compare myself to Jonah and I'll actually link it with my, my thought that I was holding onto uh, when I look at Jonah and I look at the entire story, I see myself a lot in it. I see myself comparing, I see myself then getting to a point of going okay, you're right, I need to do this better. So I'm going to pray and I'm going to give thanksgiving and I'm going to follow your lead, lord, and I'm going to do what I feel like you're calling me to do. But when it all comes down to it, I think the part that links me the most is the whole time. I am trying to do all the things myself. I am trying to discern God's voice, I am trying to do the thing and at the very end there's the mic drop, moment of silence. And I'm going. That's where it's at. I need to just be silent with God. And God is forcing that silence. He's not saying, hey, let's respond afterwards, he's literally just stopping and you're left there in silence, thinking about what just happened, reflecting back on what choices you might've made.

Speaker 1: 38:02

I think that this is a brilliant part of just the reflection piece is something that I think people, even when they reflect back, they're doing it actively. They're in the process of doing something else. They're driving, they're talking, they're trying to figure it out. They're doing it actively. They're in the process of doing something else. They're driving, they're talking, they're they're trying to figure it out. They're doing the pros and cons. To just be silent and still is something that we see in jonah over and over again. He is silent for three days in sheol and and it never he keeps coming out and grumbling. It's then the silence from God. Then I'm going wow, all right, now I better listen up, and I think that that is the comparison that I would make with my life in. Jonah is just that moment of silence at the end, and the reason why it hits me so hard is that's me and I know there are times I just need to be silent and I'm not. That's good.

Speaker 2: 38:57

I think, you made me think about when you and you need a very big fish. It would take a very big fish to swallow you up for three days.

Speaker 3: 39:03

You made me think of-.

Speaker 2: 39:05

Javi, what's your answer to that? What's your answer to your own question? I mean, that's a great question.

Speaker 3: 39:20

I totally forgot what it was. Oh, about the. Have you ever done, jonah? I think I do it all the time. I think I do it all the time.

Speaker 3: 39:23

I think God is speaking to me all the time. He's telling me that, from big things to small things, right From taking leaps and dropping something that maybe you worked hard on, or dropping something that you've been, you know, doing for a while right and not moving forward and taking the risk. To be honest, I thought taking a risk for this podcast was a big risk for me. I thought it was something that I was really scared to do. I didn't know how I fit in and I thought this was a great thing for somebody else.

Speaker 3: 39:47

And it's been a blessing for me to step forward, and I think this year for me is stepping forward in what God is calling me. I see the blessing. I see that 120,000 Ninevites could be saved and that's amazing. I see that within my life and God is working every single day for all of us and if we open up our eyes to try to help out others and see what's happening surrounding us, that we're able to bless others even with the little that we have. And I see that there, in this story at least, jonah.

Speaker 2: 40:19

Yeah, and we don't have to. I mean, this is the thing I'm going to take away from you with. This is like we don't have to see the benefit. We don't have to agree with the benefit, we just need to be faithful. We need to be obedient and if we're being called to speak in his name or to speak goodness into something and speak godliness into something, we should just do it Like it's not—we don't have to—we, as all of us Christians, don't have to understand the plan. We don't have to agree with the plan. We don't have to know the plan. We don't have to know what's going on, but we do have to trust that there's a plant growing and a worm eating and it's just our job to be obedient.

Speaker 3: 40:58

You made me think. Before David, you said silence, and it made me think we could only hear God if we're silent. Right, we could only hear each other. If I'm silent, If I'm talking, as when you're talking, or I'm thinking, or distracted, hearing about some, you know, seeing something else, or there's some loud noises happening in the background, I cannot, you know, I only in, through silence, I'm able to hear what I'm trying to focus on. And and I think I that it's it's simple, but I think it's profound to know, like, hey, only in the silence you could truly really hear what's, what's going on. And you got to be patient and do that I think it's definitely another episode.

Speaker 1: 41:33

But, yes, I think that you know, a lot of times we're not sure if the voice we're hearing is our own, is the enemy's or is God's, and that's part of it, is the discernment part. And what voice am I listening to? And there are a lot of people that right now go, I don't know if I'm hearing the voice of God and, like I said, this is a completely separate episode. The voice of God and, like I said, this is a completely separate episode. But I think, yes, if you're not silent, how do I know that the voice I'm not listening to is my own, telling me which I, you know? Oh, I think God's telling you this. It's, you know, it really only comes in the silence, and I think that time and time again, we start to see silence on the Bible as this beautiful teaching tool for people to connect closer with God, as well as darkness and sadness and hard times. I think the silence also is part of that lesson, it's part of that plan Good.

Speaker 2: 42:22

Yeah, I couldn't agree more Guys always fun. I think we've. You know it's funny. I think even between us we've had we've had little Jonah discussions, but I don't think we've ever gotten all this far into Jonah. So I'm happy that we finally had a chance to do it.

Speaker 2: 42:39

We're on an Old Testament kick right now, guys. I'm appreciating it. I like, I like all these stories. So, yeah, I was going to, I was going to. There's a little bit of Noah in Jonah too, but maybe another episode. So, guys, as always to our listeners, you are appreciated. We thank you for spending your time with us when you could be doing so many other things. We hope that our words are enlightening, interesting and offer something. If they do, please let us know. We get comments all the time. I think we are talking about doing some response episodes. That'd be cool. So send over your comments, questions, concerns and thoughts and we'd be happy to get to them. So until next time we'll see you then Have'll be cool. So send over your comments, questions, concerns and thoughts and we'd be happy to get to them. So, until next time we'll see you then have a blessed week.

Speaker 3: 43:24

I am going to stop.