David: 0:02

Welcome to the Boundless Bible. My name is David Shapiro, hey, I'm Javi Marquez and I'm Jason Holloway. And we're back at the Boundless Bible, excited for this week's conversation. Guys, how you doing? You sound excited.

Jason: 0:18

Hey, yeah.

David: 0:19

How's it going? I am very excited I'm doing well. I am looking forward to jumping into this really wild lesson, I think, today and conversation about something that is a little bit confusing. I'm not really sure why it's here. Many people don't know why it's here. Let's kind of jump in and talk about the transfiguration it's in several books right it's in several books.

David: 0:42

You have luke 9, 28 to 36. You have mark 9 2 through 8 and matthew 17, 1 through 8. Okay, uh, you have the transfiguration and let's just kind of uh jump into, uh, right after, very closely after, um, you have cesare philippi, you have jesus and cesare philippi yeah, they're going up to a mountain. It is Jesus and three others going up the mountain. Do we know who those are? Peter?

Javi: 1:10

James and the other cousin I don't remember his name John John. Yeah, John, James and John.

Jason: 1:18

Moses and Elijah.

Javi: 1:19

Later.

David: 1:20

They meet them up there.

Javi: 1:21

Good call but yes, later they meet them up there.

David: 1:24

But, yes, they meet them up there. So they go up this mountain and there's this, uh, you know this wonderful transfiguration that happens. But first I'm just going to go over the mountains that are used in this, right, uh, so there's actually some some debate on this, because the exact mountain are not a hundred percent known, right, uh? So you have mount tabor, which most people actually think this is the mountain that they were up on are not 100% known. So you have Mount Tabor, which most people actually think this is the mountain that they were up on. Yeah, however, if you look at archaeology which I love, they happen to believe that there was a Roman garrison on top of this mountain. Okay, this mountain was not the tallest in the area and there was a garrison on top, so it couldn't have been this mountain without others seeing this. Okay, mount Hermon, which is actually closer to Caesarea Philippi, caesarea Philippi Okay, mount Hermon is closer, it's taller and it actually fits.

David: 2:15

Yep, and it actually fits Matthew 17.1, being the height of the mountain and away from everything else. So this Mount Hermon happens to fit this description. When you actually look at the two that appeared with Jesus, moses and Elijah, there are also two mountains in question. So, moses, everyone goes. Which mountain? Mount Sinai? Yeah, we're clear on that Hands down right.

David: 2:38

Okay, but Elijah, there are two that people again, it doesn't say specifically when this happens, because mount carmel, he's up there with one part of his story. Okay, there's also mount horub, which he goes up at, which has another name. Does anybody know the other name for mount horub? I don't know. Mount sinai okay, so mount sinai, when it is used in terms of kind of think of sinai is the peak and horub is the mountain area, the mountain ranges but, when you look at mount horrib, when it is described in the bible, it is described as um quiet, the whisper.

David: 3:14

So this is where, again very quietly, elijah is talking to god. Okay, and mount sinai is known as thunderous, and you have Moses on top of this mountain.

David: 3:25

So, right off the bat, you have this. It's really cool. But you have this moment where you have thunder and whisper, all pointing to Jesus. Okay, so this is the first symbolic moment of why these mountains are chosen. What's happening on top of them? You literally have not only that, you have the law and prophecy coming together pointing to jesus. Yeah, uh, you have all these symbolisms and explain why the law and prophecy.

Javi: 3:51

That's an important thing so moses.

David: 3:52

Moses represents the law right and elijah represents the prophecy, and you now have the prophets and the law all pointing towards jesus, which jesus actually says later in luke.

Javi: 4:03

By the way, we'll get to that another day, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: 4:05

He does. This is just. It's the first symbolic thing that you look at, when you're just looking at what mountains they're on and it doesn't tell much about what's going on. But it's the first part of symbology, which is just really cool.

Jason: 4:21

I'm not sure we mentioned what is the transfiguration and what happened. Go for it.

Javi: 4:26

Yeah, tell the story yeah.

Jason: 4:26

All right, go for it. Yeah, just for those that maybe don't know yeah, so Jesus goes up to this mountain and he's in face with God, pretty much he's talking to God and he's transfigured Pretty much. His clothes are white.

Javi: 4:41

His face changes. His face is glowing white right.

Jason: 4:43

Clothes are white His face changes. His face is glowing white right. His face changes. Yeah, and then we see also Moses and Elijah there. Jesus, obviously, like we said, david said before that he goes up with John Peter and James. Yeah, so they're all up on this mountain and this is what happens to Jesus as he speaks to Moses and Elijah and, of course, God.

Javi: 5:05

And then Peter asks to build shelters, correct.

David: 5:08

Which, again, more symbolism. We'll get there. Okay, more symbolism, yeah, go for it. He said let's build three tents. This is great that we're here. We'll build three tents. Right, they don't need three tents. You know why? Because the tents represent. They represent the tabernacle. That's the tenting. We don't need three tabernacles, you only need one, and you're with him, so you don't need it. He doesn't need a dwelling place, they don't need a dwelling place.

Javi: 5:30

You're with the.

David: 5:31

God. So he kind of looks at Peter. He did you know in a way where you don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, you don't need three tabernacles, because I'm the only one. You don't even need one, because I'm with you. I don't need a dwelling place. I'm dwelling with you right now. Yeah, wow, hold on.

Jason: 5:47

Give me a minute, the moment of a kid like standing up in class asking the wrong question. Yeah or asking the right like ooh.

Javi: 5:53

Well, but this is really significant, right, like they have been traveling with God, yep, they should now watched him do miracles outside of a temple, which is a big deal, because no miracles happened outside of a temple previously. They watched all that. They saw that they should have understood by then. Then they go up the mountain. They watch him turn into an angelic being.

Javi: 6:15

They see the law and the prophets. Join with Jesus in the same way that he has been speaking of, and they still ask the question join with Jesus in the same way that he has been speaking of, right? And they still ask the question should we permanently place a structure here because we need to put a structure like a temple? Yeah, right, so they still haven't gotten it, and so it's just this other reminder that you can see it dead on with your eyes. Yeah, you can experience it with your faith and your heart and yourself, and still not quite get it.

Jason: 6:48

Yeah, so to me, that's the reason why he brought them up to see this transfiguration.

Javi: 6:55

Poor Peter, though he's always the one that Jesus is like for real. For real, dude, come on man.

Jason: 7:00

But it's always him, though. Like three years. Three years, I'm with you.

Javi: 7:03

Three years he actually says how long must I be with you while you act like this?

Jason: 7:06

Yeah, but that's what it is. I think that's the reason why he brought them up. For them to see him talking to God and see him in Transfinger is to show like, hey, I'm not just a rabbi, I am, you know, I am the son of God, which in all three cases, I believe they had already said you are the messiah, he says who do people think that I am?

Javi: 7:29

has that happened before this? It happened just before this, actually, I think it in, at least in luke. I know it happens right before. This is.

David: 7:33

This is a moment where he is uh, literally the the philippi is where uh the rock of um peter peter so this is where he already right. So peter already proves he knows who he is, which is why he says I'm going to build the church.

Javi: 7:48

Cause he says who do you, who do people say that I am Right, that's what happens before this. Who do people say that I?

David: 7:52

am, that's exactly. That's right before this, right before, okay, so that's again super significant to look.

Javi: 8:00

I don't believe I know it is in luke, for sure, um. And then in luke, right after that, he says after he says that, yes, you are the messiah, he says some of you here will not pass to your final days until you have seen the kingdom of god, something. Yes, right, yeah. And so now this is like the precursor, that's, that's the foreshadowing of in a couple days. You're about to go up to this mountain and see me transfigure, and see that for sure.

Jason: 8:25

The kingdom of God is right there. That's good. That's a good point actually. Yeah, I think it's amazing that he's bringing up the three. There's so many symbolism there, right, having this close guys that know more than maybe the other 12. There's all that, right. Why bring the three up?

Javi: 8:43

They're the first three. Actually, now that I think about it, they're the first three. That was. There was all the ones he he got right in the beginning. Right, it was peter, james and john.

David: 8:50

Yeah and I don't so that's the people.

Javi: 8:51

So maybe it's not like the most faithful. Maybe it's the, the three who had known him the longest, who would have the most reason to not believe. They had seen him in the, in the flesh, more time than anybody else. So to watch him transfigure would be the most impactful for those.

David: 9:05

It could be. Uh, there's not anything written on it. No, it definitely could be. Yeah, uh, but now what do they talk about? And this is the part where, okay, yeah, transfiguration happens. Sure, you have jesus with moses and elijah. What in the world are they talking about? So we could say, okay, one represents law, one represents prophecy, and then you, you have Jesus. So why they're there? Okay, but what are they saying?

David: 9:28

And the only reference we have to that, really, if you look at Luke 9, 30 to 31, they mention a departure. That's really the only words that are understood is departure. The word for departure used for Jesus so this is jesus's departure is the same word for exodus. Okay, so again you go. Well, that's why moses was there. It's the exodus. But no, this is really the only wording that we have in this entire interaction is that jesus is going to have to depart. Yeah, so we can look at that as his sacrifice. He's going to have to depart sacrificially. This is the exodus of all of the people who deserve punishment in hell into the exodus into heaven. So there's a lot of, again, symbolic things we can look at at that moment, but we don't really have any idea what the conversation was? We have no clue, yeah Right. So this is where I'm going to get a little crazy.

Javi: 10:28

If you want to respond before I get a little nuts. No, look, I I think that's. I think that's interesting. Like I just read the same thing. The greek is exodus, so it it's about that and I think it's interesting. Before we even get into that, I I think we're talking about moses and elijah being up there with them. You know they're moses is the law and elijah is the prophet. Is the prophets in the father of those books, those sections of the torah right, was moses said to have died and been pulled up to heaven. Was he? I think elijah's the only one who ever resurrected.

David: 10:57

Well, just because we're getting into that, okay, all right. One of the really cool things that you don't realize is, um, right now they're on a mountain in the promised land, right? That moses never got to go to, right? This is the first time we see moses in the promised land, actually, so he died prior to being allowed into the promised land, and now jesus has invited him into the promised land for the first time, so it's really cool to actually and if we want to go time bending, stuff right.

Javi: 11:25

If we want to go like time bending was when he was up on mount sinai, was he actually up on?

David: 11:30

the same mountain. That's where am I at the future, so, and that's where my crazy goes, yeah well, let's go, let's go crazy, let's go crazy, let's go hyper speed.

David: 11:38

Was this a vision from their time? Was this a vision from their time or is this God, pulling all three into a shared now, because time does not exist for God? So is this something where Moses and Elijah have been speaking from their own time, which Moses was around 1400 BC, elijah was about 800 BC, and God's glory transcends time. So he again Moses, I mean Jesus now is ripping off the fleshly self he is turning into, he's transfiguring into God, transcending time and pulling these two into the what they consider shared now.

Jason: 12:18

They're there now.

David: 12:18

Right. So this was God. He's not breaking into time, he's just taking time that we're bound from out of the picture.

Jason: 12:27

So what I'm hearing you saying is when Moses was on the mountain talking and Elijah was on the mountain talking to God and Jesus was on the mountain talking to what we see here in the Gospels.

Javi: 12:39

They were all actually talking to him.

Jason: 12:40

It was about the same time for their own time. Yes, is what you're trying to say? Yes, before.

David: 12:44

Abraham. I am Not, I was, I am.

Jason: 12:46

So when Moses was on the mountain talking, he was actually talking to Jesus. Jesus was there in the mountain with him at the same time. Could have been yeah, yeah, yeah, could have been.

Javi: 12:56

It makes sense. I'm just trying to clarify. It makes total sense, right, diverse?

Jason: 13:00

I have questions on that, but let's do it. So, uh, I do I. That's actually a good point. I think it's an interesting way to look at it. My questions would be there was things being said to moses at that time. He was getting, he was getting the covenant right, he was getting all the laws down. At that time he was doing the job wasn't because he was writing down I say the job, because he was writing down the tablets, everything that he was there for 40 days, 40 nights, right. So he was writing down I say the job because he was writing down the tablets, everything that he was there for 40 days, 40 nights, right. So he was there for a long time writing down this work. And to me, my question is well, if he's there with Jesus and they're having this interaction I mean, in 40 days, you could maybe break apart and go, hey, oh hey, if God was talking to him, telling him things for his people at that time, why would Jesus be there? Wouldn't that interaction be a little bit?

David: 13:53

You just answer your own question, you go. He was talking and interacting at that time. If there is no time Jesus can talk to Moses at any point in time in history can talk to Elijah, it doesn't mean that he's going to put them right back in that time period and then time exists again.

Javi: 14:07

Imagine.

David: 14:08

How come you don't remember that Right? Because we just had this interaction. The interaction happened outside of time, in God's world. Okay, this is the world that we attain to become part of, so when we go to heaven, yeah, part of being in God's world is time no longer exists.

Javi: 14:25

Right being in.

David: 14:25

God's world is time no longer exists, so we're going. If I'm pulled out of time, I'm in an area now where I can see things and be part of things that are happening past, present, future, sure.

Jason: 14:36

But there was things that were being said, though, so God confirmed his son saying this is I have it here, sorry. So God says to them on the mountain he goes uh, this is my son whom I chosen, listen to him. So to me, moses heard that, so I haven't. I don't know if Moses ever wrote anything prophesying for Jesus to promise to come, the son to be.

David: 15:04

Nope Again. First, we're assuming that moses heard it, because this wasn't directed towards moses. Is directed towards the three apostles peter, jacob, but even if he did we're again? We're pulling yourself out of the normal linear time. Yeah, so I can hear things in the future that haven't happened yet. It doesn't mean that when I go back to the past, I know the future. If time does not exist in God's world, it does exist in human world.

Javi: 15:29

I don't think it necessarily. I don't see it quite as the. I mean, I know what you're saying. We've had these kind of like time bending conversations before where, look, if you really want to get weird for a second, well, that whole concept is weird and the foundation of it, meaning the rules behind it, is weird right, but it's actually not unreasonable, so think about the fact that if time is broken in half and time is broken in half and time is broken if a second is broken in half and then that second is broken in half and that's broken in half and that broken, eventually.

Javi: 15:57

There has to be a middle. That is nothing. There has to be a point when all time stops. So time can stop right this very second. You and I could have stopped talking right at this very second and 10 million worlds could have happened in that in the span of that time. And then we come back to this moment and never realized that a hundred million lifetimes went through Like time is a weird concept right.

Javi: 16:14

So let's just go back to like if it is a timeless place. What David's saying is like essentially in all of their worlds at the same time, time would have stopped across time and they would have merged in that non-time space to be able to speak about it, Whether they knew about it after they came back, who knows, maybe it was just a ripple in time. Now I actually don't think that's what happened. If we have to go in that world, clearly they all stood on top of a mountain. We got that right. Let's go way more physical. They were all standing on top of a mountain, potentially even the same mountain at separate times in history. I kind of see it as, like you know, when dr strange like does his hand around.

Jason: 16:55

Then you get that like uh, the, the, the time loop, not even time, but like they can jump through a portal.

Javi: 16:57

Right, they have this portal where you can jump through to go to different places in space. Well, if you can go through space, you can go through time. So what's the difference? It's like they're on top of the mountain and like god opens a portal and they can all look at each other through the portal. And they can all look at each other and see each other and they're kind of doing like the spider man, like pointing at one another like you and you and you and you and, but they, they look at each other and they have a conversation and they, they, they speak to one another about what's coming and what was and what is.

Javi: 17:22

Yeah, and and again. Who knows whether we're we're implying a whole lot here, but there's a clear statement here. They spoke about his departure, which means that and and again, the word exodos and it means his physical departure. So you know any it's anyone game as to what they talked about, but they definitely had this conversation, which means, if they knew it, abraham already knew what was coming, elijah already knew what was coming, and that's a really fascinating concept. That, like, that's also what helped them to have the strength and commitment to move on, even if it was like dreamlike state, like even if it was a dreamlike state. Sometimes we all have these moments in our life where we have this like awakening, or this enlightenment. Enlightenment like, literally, light shines big on our lives.

Jason: 18:05

Yeah, and we say that felt really true and that gives you the faith to keep going yeah, for me, I I look at it as what is what it reads, right, it's, it's how we see the angels appear. That's how I see how abraham and elijah appeared. Oh interesting. Yeah, not through a portal or anything, he just just he just appeared right. I won't say magically, but like, just just he just appeared right.

Javi: 18:26

I won't say magically, but like they just disappeared on the mountain I'm glad you said that, because that's why I was asking about their position after death.

David: 18:33

Yeah, so moses died elijah, they actually don't have his died. Okay, right, well, that's why. That's why I knew, but I don't remember the moses thing, but he never the body, never found the body?

Javi: 18:41

yeah, is that what it was? Moses died. So there is again. This goes into debate of did uh satan fight? Found the body?

David: 18:44

Yeah, is that what it was. Moses died. So there is again this goes into debate of did Satan fight for the body of Moses?

Javi: 18:49

That's right. I thought about that. I knew there was something there.

David: 18:51

There's a lot behind it, but we don't really know. Okay, so we don't know about him, but we do know that Elijah was said to have lived.

Javi: 18:57

We know that he did not make it into the promised land, per the Bible that Elijah never died, so is there a chance that was Elijah at the top of the mountain?

Jason: 19:07

Right? Well, that's what we read that it is Moses and Elijah there, right? Or the guys like how would Luke know that this is Moses and Elijah, right, right, and also-.

Javi: 19:18

Well, matthew and Mark and Luke all said the same thing.

Jason: 19:19

Right, right they all say the same thing. What I'm trying to say is how is that person in the New Testament at that time knows Elijah? How he looks like he's not wearing a name tag saying I'm Elijah. That's a good point, Right To them. That's what's being revealed to them through God, as God also spoke to them. Right, he spoke to the disciples that were there, saying, hey, this is my son. He's you know, he's the one Right. And these are symbolism that showing that he is the fulfillment of the law and the fulfillment of the prophet.

Javi: 19:49

Look, at you, that's knowledge.

Jason: 19:51

That's who he is, he is the guy. So they walk away from that going. Well, Jesus said when you walk away from here, don't say anything to anybody, Because not just yet, but to know that I am who I am.

Javi: 20:03

Yes.

Jason: 20:03

Right Through this body.

Javi: 20:05

And it happens after they again just a man, I'm also you have to take 10 steps back from this thing too, because it's really no, you're, you're completely on it right now for me, like I think. I think I'm right with you I think, because we get caught on the details sometimes and sometimes you have to step back and ask yourself the bigger picture, right? So just before this, he had asked who do you think I am? And Peter said I think you are the Messiah. And he basically said cool, you are the Jewish Messiah.

Javi: 20:30

Now you can be let.

David: 20:31

Yeah, you're the Jewish Messiah.

Javi: 20:33

Now you can be, now I can let you in to the proof of that. I don't want to let everybody else in, because I was thinking about this actually last night and I don't know what brought it up, but why did he keep telling everybody? I don't know what brought it up, but why did he keep telling everybody? I don't want you to know, I don't want people to know, I don't want people to know. Why did he keep doing that? And I think it's because if everybody believed he was a Messiah, then everybody would have.

Jason: 20:52

Then then there's no belief in themselves, right? They can't, I can't come freely to you, right?

Javi: 21:30

no-transcript, he was the thing he said. He was yeah, but it's ex post facto, it's after the fact. Yeah, it's after the fact and that's that's. The point is like you need to know about it later and then you need to go. What did I do like?

David: 21:44

the only and again I'm getting back on the time thing only because, okay, jesus could have done this in any moment. He could have just turned himself into a white transfiguration with nobody around, the father coming through the heavens right, like that's the weird part about writing, but yeah, I mean there could have been that moment, the reason why I believe he went up on the mountain and had this interaction with two people from completely different eras, from where?

David: 22:06

he was yeah, yeah, um, I think is. I do think it's also to show that a little glimpse of what time really does and that it doesn't really exist. I think there's a reason for it. It's not just, hey, well, what does that mean? I think that there's importance, and and the importance of is a couple things. One is eternal life doesn't start after death, it starts now, which is why believing is so important. Yes, so I don't think he's going. Hey, you can wait, you have time, you have this Believing and the actual gaining heaven starts now. Yeah, I think so.

David: 22:37

Time wise, he's showing that there's less relevance to time. That's a deep one. I think that Jesus is not bound by time, so he's meeting us where we are. He can heal our past, present and guide our future. I think he's showing now again, moses not having been allowed into the promised land, and now he's there. This would have had significance to a Jewish person looking at that going. Why is Moses here when God said you will not enter, and now he's entered. I think that it shows that God Jesus, well, spiritually.

Javi: 23:09

Also spiritually he entered.

David: 23:10

He didn't necessarily, but I think that it shows that God can heal your past. Yeah, that he's outside of time. Yeah, and then also, you know, just in a nice that sounds really nice type of way, our prayers are echoed into eternity without a time limit.

David: 23:27

So when we pray and we're like, how come this isn't happening now? There's no time limit on our prayers in heaven? I think we look at things through time. This is how we are, and when you look at God, what he's showing us right there, he's going. I am beyond time, so you need to believe in me now, in your time now, but I'm bringing all of these people together from these different time periods in the quote unquote now, the shared now. I just happen to think that this is yes, to start talking about time and the lack of time and rules around that, and we go. We don't know what that would be like because we don't have that ability. God does, yeah, and I think when he's showing us this ability of of how he's bringing all these people um throughout time, and I don't believe this is just. This is their quote-unquote ghost, this is their soul, I think this is actually them, uh, in this moment, with jesus, at that very mountain, I'll tell you this um, as I look at the disciples right, let's.

Jason: 24:24

I'm backing out a little bit you this as I look at the disciples right, I'm backing out a little bit from Jesus. I'm looking at the disciples now For them to see this the guys, james, peter, john is the foundation of what's going to happen after Jesus died. He's the foundation of to continue forward, of what Jesus they're the foundation For them to see this. It holds so much weight to moving forward.

David: 24:51

I feel like I don't know if they're the Listen. There were a lot of the apostles that if you talk to people in India who Thomas went and preached to them, I don't know if they're going to look at Peter as the foundation. No, no, but Peter was called the rock. No, no, but I think, when you look at 12 disciples, 12 apostles that went and did this work afterwards, I don't think you can pick out three and go you. Three were the reason.

Jason: 25:15

Don't get me wrong, sorry.

David: 25:17

Let's not say the foundation.

Jason: 25:18

What I'm trying to say is this when things started happening to Jesus as far as being captured, imprisonment them, being them after he died, this was their strength. This is the strength. This is something. You go back and you go. No, no, no, no, no. This is the God that promises us. This is he was actually God. He was the one that was sent for us. He has a promise for us. He has a rule for us. We, I'm he's going to lead us forward.

Jason: 25:43

He said this and I believe him because I saw this through God and how I know this Cause, just like Moses, what I do believe for them, right, them being John, peter and James. They believe in Moses, they believe in the law. They believe that Moses spoke to God. He was transfigured, as he wasn't transfigured, but he was white as white, right, when he talked to God, he was white. I'm seeing this through Jesus. Wow, this is actually God. I see the cloud that we talked about. That we know from the stories of Moses. He's speaking to God. This is something that holds you when you're going through the rut, when you're going through down. You're going. God was there before. God was here. He showed me his face. He is present, he is alive, he is real, yeah is real.

Javi: 26:31

Yeah, I, I don't disagree with that. I also think I mean again to your point it doesn't make them the three most important right there. There could be others, but I always hate to take the three steps beyond like what we really know.

Javi: 26:37

But who knows, maybe thomas needed them to come down and like he was called doubting he was doubting, maybe he needed, maybe and he was super important in india, for sure but maybe he actually needed for james to come down and go. You know, dude, I saw that that's real, real, like that's not, that's, that's not fake, that's real right with all three of them seeing it, all three of them still doubted, still had moments afterwards, so even it sounds.

David: 26:58

I'm saying I don't know if this is necessarily about hey, we saw this and now we believe because they still don't fully. I don't think this is a moment of. I think it's bigger than that exactly, and I think it's bigger.

Javi: 27:09

And I actually think it's bigger for a reason. You won't think I'm going to say it's bigger. I think it's bigger because, you know, I agree it's bigger than that.

Jason: 27:14

I'm just trying to say that yeah this is. This is something that, to me, is why those three and why, whatever it is and maybe it doesn't matter as much, but is the significance there leading forward? To lead this like Like they led this forward. What happens after? Even though they doubted, we all doubt Moses, doubt Moses, you know like, like Moses saw God, he spoke to God, he still doubted he still complained he still.

Jason: 27:39

that's why he didn't make the promise. That's what we're talking about here. So like it's okay to say that, but to have that, to know that, to see that I think it holds some weight.

Javi: 27:48

This is an and thing for me, right? This is not a this or that. I think you're right. I think you're right, I think also the important part and I kind of mentioned this earlier if anybody hadn't been on the mountain, nobody would have known about it, so had to have somebody on the mountain, somebody who was going to be a part of it, like somebody who Somebody who was going to be a part of the writing of the Bible later, or else nobody would have known.

Javi: 28:07

In fact, Jesus went off to go pray alone a lot. Does that mean he did this other times?

Jason: 28:14

That says Jesus but don't believe him as God. This is another way of saying hey, we saw it with our own eyes. He is the glorified God that we worship.

David: 28:29

And, again, part of what we do is we look at the text and we try to explain it, like everyone does, and I look at it and go why do they choose these three people to be up there to witness? Versus one, versus all of them, versus whatever? And I'm going. I do believe that there is way more on, and I and there is very possible, like most things, there's a lot of layers. So, yes, these three men were supposed to see this. Yes, they need to need to write it down.

David: 28:48

Yes, it's possible that Moses and Elijah were chosen because it is prophetic and it is law. Yes, it's true that they were all on mountains. It could also be true that they all appeared at the same time, because time doesn't exist and they're shared now. There could be multiple reasons. That's why I love this moment. Yeah, there's so much symbolism, there's so much possibility to it, that it could be as and I don't want to say small or easy, because, listen, jesus, transferring into you know his, his self, um, is not an easy thing, but it could be as simple as there were three guys went up to the mountain, witnessed it, and that was it, um, or it could be a lot deeper. I just love that this moment had happened and that listen, we're talking about this 2,000 years later, right.

David: 29:32

Going. You know I don't understand what's going on, but and then we get into things. Like you know, time, yeah, does time exist? And these crazy little journeys.

Javi: 29:42

Well, that's the beauty of these stories. Again, I've said this, we've all said this several times like these, these shortish stories have they're. They're created in such a way that they can be pushed and pulled and tweaked and messed with to understand deeper things that we just never would have, we just never would have understood otherwise. And when you, the point of scripture is to wrestle with it. The point of scripture is to dig into it, to find the meaning behind it, to to figure it out where it doesn't quite make sense, to. I don't know what it's like for some. I've never stood on top of a mountain and seen three people that weren't there previously. I've never done that. So what does that mean? You know what is. What does that mean?

Jason: 30:17

well, I have a question there, because if it was mount herman, you're talking about like 10 000, 10 000 feet or something like. I can't imagine scaling a mountain in those sandals, man In those sandals.

David: 30:29

That's true. There is how, how Well listen there are competitions every year going up Pikes Peak, which is 14,000 feet in Colorado every year.

Javi: 30:40

So I mean it's Not in sandals.

David: 30:42

Not in sandals, no, probably not. But yeah, it is, it's a hike.

Jason: 30:48

I mean they're walking, they're walking yeah, I mean, I think it's.

Javi: 30:51

I think the whole thing's fascinating. I also am curious knowing that the whole story really revolves around mountains. I wonder if that is the origin of the mountaintop experience thing that we talk about today.

Javi: 31:05

It could be I also you know, the very first I didn't know about the whole tents being sacred. I didn't know that's what that was until until you just said that. So previous to that, I thought that the tents were his, were peter's attempt to sustain the moment, and I was like this is a beautiful moment he's dealing with, he's existing in this moment. He's like, oh wow, I see jesus and elijah and moses and I'm like overcome with joy and emotion and incredible feelings. I want this to last, like was it his.

David: 31:34

Of course it could just be three tenths. I mean the, the.

Javi: 31:38

Ant version does say it's sacred, so I didn't caught that before. But like, it's definitely what you said earlier previously. But it's also like, does he just want, to like, live in this moment and again, don't we all know that moment of having this enlightened moment and being I want to live in?

Jason: 31:50

what I read from. What I read from that is peter saying um, we're just here, like, can we help you anything? Yeah, you're like master, should we even be here? Um, hey, I can make some shelter, I can make some tests for you, like you guys want some soup. It's cold up here I don't know what like you guys are chit chatting over there. I don't know what you want us to do here. That's what I mean exactly. Yeah, no.

Javi: 32:09

I totally see that too, like he's like all uncomfortable and awkward and he's like you guys good, you guys good.

Javi: 32:15

Yeah, I love that guys, this is yet another interesting and thought provoking conversation. We hope that anyone listening has also had some thoughts provoked. It's interesting stuff. It's really. It's really I don't know. It's just so fun to dig into the details and to to ask questions about the things that we don't understand, right, and to ask questions about the things we do understand, to see if there's something deeper behind them. So we enjoy the opportunity to be able to talk amongst ourselves and to let you listen in, but we would love it if you guys would be a part of the conversation as well. So make sure you're leaving us some comments, some uh, you know, send us emails, send us a text message. You can check in your podcast and there's actually a text message link, uh and we will receive it. Um, but we love these conversations. This is what we do. We don't even need to be on a podcast and we do this all the time.

David: 33:05

This is just what we do for fun.

Javi: 33:07

So if you want to be part of the fun, let us know. Please review us on the social, not on the social. Please review us on the podcast channels and we look forward to talking to you again next week. Thanks, guys, have a good one. Have a blessed week.