David: 0:02

Welcome to the Boundless Bible. My name is David Shapiro, hey, I'm Javi Marquez and I'm Jason Holloway. Hi guys, welcome back to the Boundless Bible. How you doing, what's going on, how are you guys Doing well, thank you. Did you have a good week? All good? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Javi: 0:21

Really good. Good, I'm glad.

David: 0:22

Today we are going into the story of Abraham and Isaac. Abraham, the father of many nations and, apparently, many children.

Javi: 0:32

So good All of them.

David: 0:33

That's it. He had actually eight children, believe it or not. Really, most people don't know that. Oh yes, but we are going to focus in on Isaac. We're going to focus in on his son that he had with Sarah. His first son no on Isaac, we're going to focus in on his son that he had with Sarah, his first son his?

Javi: 0:46

no, he wasn't his first son.

David: 0:47

Okay, uh, ishmael was actually his first that he had with Hagar, um, but that's right. But then he had, you know, after a long wait, around 90 years, uh, sarah finally gave birth to Isaac.

Jason: 0:58

Crazy. I have hope guys it. I have hope guys. Ishtar's little brother I have hope.

David: 1:03

So we have a really interesting story here, because you know the setup is really quick. Abraham and you know Sarah, have a son. Finally, this is the promised son from God. Yeah, have Isaac. This is somebody. When I say promised son, I mean when you talk about 90 years hoping for a child and finally having this child. Yeah, the excitement, the love that was given to this child, uh, and then the dramatic turn, the bum, bum, bum. God saying, yes, you have to sacrifice your son. Yes, the one that you love, the one you've been waiting for. I want you to go up this mountain, I want you to sacrifice your son. Bring, bring this wood. In fact, have your son carry it and we are going to char him afterwards. And this was a command given to Abraham. And what does he do? He doesn't, he follows.

Jason: 1:55

He follows through, he doesn't even actually it's notable he doesn't say no, right, right.

Javi: 2:02

There's no indication that he hesitates.

Jason: 2:04

He just says okay, see you tomorrow. It's pretty wild, huh. He has this deep faith it's.

David: 2:09

It's incredible to watch the faith that that deep with God, that he trusts. It's a trust, it's, it's faith, into the point of trusting somebody to know I'm going to walk this walk but my son's going to be fine Right.

Jason: 2:24

Yeah, I mean, it's not a faith. I think I have to be fair, I mean it's it's. This is also probably one of the most controversial stories of the old Testament is why would God even ask that, you know? So I think we kind of have to like unpack a few things Like number one why would he ask it? And number two, why would Abraham say yes? And maybe we start with the easier of those two, which is the? Why would uh, abraham say yes? And maybe we start with the easier those two, which is the? Why would he say yes? And my, my first thought is that he waited 90. He was told he was going to have a child, right, which was all a ridiculous thought to him, and he waited patiently and he got it, you know, and in obviously miraculous fashion, to have a child with a woman who was what?

David: 3:04

90, 100 years old 90 well past, right, you know age right.

Jason: 3:08

Well, I mean, so you're, you're in miraculous territory already. So he had a kind of seen firsthand the miracles and it worked out. And he probably doubted for all that 90 years, right, and yet that it came to be. So this time he goes. You know what? I'm going to skip the doubt. Now again, I don't have that kind of faith. But like is that? Do you think that's why he said yes so quickly?

David: 3:25

I think and, by the way, just so we know, we're referencing genesis 22, 1 through 19 as a story uh, but yeah, I think you're 100, right, I think you know abraham had matured into this deep trust from his long walk with god, right? Uh, we talk about our walk with god and I know how deeply my my walk has been and my faith in God is and my walk has not been 90 years. So when you think about that and you go, okay, if you're maturing in age and you have a 90 year walk with God one of them, meaning that you know you are believing, okay, you said Isaac was going to be born. He's born 90 years later. You know, I am going to have some pretty deep faith, right, and I think that his faith went to.

David: 4:07

I don't think he expected Isaac to stay dead. I think that when he was told this, I think he said God promised me this son. Yeah, he's not going to take him from him. Whether he is going to resurrect him or whether he's going to, you know, something is going to happen. I don't think he expected Isaac to stay dead.

Javi: 4:25

No, I is going to happen. I don't think he expected Isaac to stay dead. No, I'm going to say, like, for me, I can relate, you know we're, you know we're we're trying to get pregnant and it's been a while and I can say that right. But like I can relate to that, you know, and just trusting God and knowing that maybe he will provide that or not, I can imagine for Abraham, 90 years of maybe, you know, waiting for this to happen and then it does. You're going, this is a miracle and only God could have done it at 90 years old, Right, Right. So your faith it's even more, you know, stronger and deeper because of that.

Javi: 4:59

And to say, yes, for Isaac to be sacrificed just to be, you know, like that's crazy. But yeah, I think that I think maybe what David said is right. He's probably saying, okay, I have faith in you, God, that you provided this son and if you want to take him away, maybe you'll provide another one. So maybe there's that kind of thing that he's saying like, all right, well, you need this for a purpose. So I am going to trust you and knowing that hopefully you'll give me another son, because you did say that I would have many children.

Jason: 5:32

Yes, yeah, I mean, and his life is one. Even from the beginning of Abraham's life, he had been called to do things and he had done them. So his whole story is about obedience. Yeah, you know, he was called to leave his homeland, right, I mean? So this is not the first time. It's consistent with his character, I guess. Is what I'm saying, right, like?

David: 5:52

that. And if you look back in Genesis 17, 19, god extends this covenant through Isaac. So God and Abraham have this covenant. This is a commitment on both sides. Have this covenant. This is a commitment on both sides. And he extends it to Isaac, saying that the child Sarah will bear again, not knowing that this is going to happen in 90 years, but the child that she will bear, my covenant will extend through him. Yeah, I think that Abraham has to, at this point, have some sort of belief that he's going to be okay. If this is supposed to extend and remember the covenant was he'll be a father of many nations, right? How can you do that if your child is killed? Right? That's true. So I think that he truly believed god through this long walk and said if god says my covenant continues through him and I believe in the covenant that god, you know, promised, yeah, he's fine, I'm gonna have the.

Javi: 6:40

He's probably thinking like take this one and two comes out. You know kind of kind of thing. Who knows, right, like God is going to multiply and I trust that that's a crazy thought, I know, like gremlins, I know.

Jason: 6:52

You're going to put one Isaac on the hill and you're going to get two on the way down. Like that's pretty wild. I never thought of that idea. No, I mean, look, I think the story and we also have to remember Abraham is literally the crux of three religions, right, like he's not just, like that's how big and bold his story is and his faith and his obedience. And you know, we've talked before about what is the Bible about in the first place. Right, it's about learning who God is, learning about the character of God and also, more importantly, learning who we are as humans in relationship to God. Yeah, right. And so I think that in this very, very early phase of humanity, learning who it is and who it revolves around and where it comes from this is a story of humanity at its base.

Jason: 7:42

I have choices to make in my life. I can choose to do the right things, the good things, and oftentimes, in order to build a civilization, the things that are against me but are for a grander scheme, right, yeah. Or I have the choice to be selfish and do me right. I have those choices, yeah, and the times that we see God most clearly are the times when we are doing the good, the selfless, the obedient, the. I don't really know what's coming next, but I'm going to do it anyway, yep. And to be faithful, and remember faithful doesn't mean that, like I just love it, I'm happy and joyful. Faithful, right. Faithfulness means I don't have any idea what's coming right, but I trust, I trust you, yeah, but I trust that it's going to be better than where I'm at right now.

David: 8:30

Yes, right this is definitely a full surrender. Um, even even through this moment where he's having these dilemmas. Um, you know, there is he. He uses the word hineni, okay, which, when they ask where you are, he goes here, I am hineni. Oh, um, first it's his it's. When they ask where you are, he goes here, I am Hanani.

David: 8:46

First it's God who asks where he is, before he's asking him where to go. You know, hey, I want you to go up this mountain, I want you to do this. This is a readiness to serve. Where are you? Here? I am, I'm here, I'm ready for you. Then his son, on the way up the mountain, asks him where are you? He wants to know where his dad is. And again he says heneh, this is now, uh, kind of a sensitivity to relationship. He's still calling out to his son, saying I'm still here, yes, even though he's about to do this. Right, so it's a sensitivity, his relationship. And then the final one is, uh, when he's about to do it, this is now, you know, probably with tears in his eyes. You know, where are you? Right, here I am, with the knife in his hand, about to do this. This is now that spiritual attentiveness, this is that ultimate surrender that he went through everything. This is that very moment where maybe he thought on the way up the mountain, god was going to stop him. Who knows where his brain?

Javi: 9:37

was at yeah.

David: 9:38

I mean really. But this is that, that very last moment, probably, tears in his eyes, where god is again asking where you are. Remember he asked adam and eve where you are, that's right, and they were hiding. They're asking abraham and he's going here. I am, tears in his eyes, ready to kill his son for god's command, with full surrender. I mean absolutely beautiful again. Faithfulness, jason. Faithfulness I can't even comprehend, not even, not even yeah, you use that like.

Jason: 10:05

Here I am, and you called out adam and eve just out of curiosity. What was their answer? When he called out where are you? It was the next step, but no, I mean when. When he called out adam and eve, oh, what was? What was their response? Was it the same?

David: 10:18

well, they were hiding he goes, he goes, where are you? And and again it could have been thought of where are you in your brain, where are you in your mind of? Where are you in your brain? Where are you in your mind Right, or where are you Like? Why are you hiding?

Jason: 10:27

But did they answer Hanane or did they? No, okay so that's what I'm getting at, absolutely not. He's still taking responsibility for the actions of God, right when they're trying to hide from him, and this is the eternal struggle. That's good to this day, you know. God sometimes says, where are you and I go? Not here?

Jason: 10:47

yeah, right, that's true, I'm next door right I you know, like I'm hiding from god because I don't I, or or I'm just like pretending I'm still playing video games and not paying attention to him. Right, like I'm any number of things I'm doing not to call out, like, how often does god call you to do something? You go, I'm here yeah, especially with.

Javi: 11:02

Yeah, especially with something so precious like a child, right, like well, that's the I mean the ultimate like for him to. I don't think there's a bigger sacrifice, right, so for him to to say I'm here, I'm going to go through with this God, rather than going, I'm going to run away with my child you know for you to, not for sure. Or I'm going to continue to protect and put this over, covering on my child from any kind of harm.

Jason: 11:24

I'm going to protect myself from the hurt I'm going to feel. I'm going to protect him from the harm he's going to feel and the and the consequence you're going to feel. He didn't do that.

Jason: 11:32

This is this is, I mean. I think that's why the story is written this way right, because it's an ultimate, literally ultimate in its most final word. Ultimate sacrifice, ultimate sacrifice. It's ultimate, I should say obedience Because there is not anything. He would have suffered from it, isaac would have suffered from it, rachel would have suffered from it, sarah would have suffered from it, the whole clan would have suffered from it. And yet he said here, I am here. I am here, I am because he trusted that whatever was on the other side of that veil was better, was better.

David: 12:03

Right Now, I think the other side of that veil was better, was better right now. I think the other question you had is is even more interesting. Um, I do, I. I do believe that you know, we can look at what a lot of people say. This is the foreshadowing of jesus. Yeah, isaac is carrying wood up the mountain. Um, it's the sacrificing of a son.

Javi: 12:20

So I think that there's the foreshadowing side a lot of parallels, but but lot of parallels.

David: 12:23

But again, I've heard that a million times.

Jason: 12:26

I do want to jump into kind of where your question was, which was Look, the bigger question that any atheist or agnostic or you know very I don't know struggling Christian will ask you or, to be real, every Christian should ask this question. Right, like, why would God even ask of that in the first place? Doesn't that make God kind of a ruthless dude? Right, like it's a solid question and I think that's what we have to address, because it's a hard one. It's a hard one to address, yeah.

Javi: 12:58

I like to think when Looking at that story, I really don't think God would do that. Now, I feel like, for that moment of obedience remember this this is before the law. Yes, right, abraham is having faith. He's not doing these laws to have a relationship with God or just to show obedience. This is the way he shows obedience to have a relationship with God or just to show obedience. This is the way he shows obedience.

Javi: 13:27

So, for me, I just feel like that was the testing, because God does test us. I feel like, and he's testing Abraham here, and I think that's what it is, and we can see God testing us nowadays in our life, and I pray that it's not as drastic as this as far as having to sacrifice your I don't, you know, as far as having to sacrifice your son, or you know saying like, and I, I hear these stories, right, dramatic story Like, why would God take away my son? Why would God take away my kid? Right, um, and we see that, right, he, I'm supposed to go before my kid, or uh, stuff like that. And I just feel like there is, um, something bigger there than than God took this as a test for you. I think there's something way bigger than this.

Jason: 14:04

Like I mean, I think I may end up contradicting myself along the way of this conversation because I'm still wrestling with it too right, but one of the most important things is the fact that this is Abraham. This is the father of the rest of the religion, and multiple religions, for that matter. Right, if you have to look at this metaphorically and symbolically, remember, abraham was born in Ur. Is that what it was In Mesopotamia? The moon god was the god that they worshipped when he was a kid. Yeah, he was told to leave that area. So try to hold this in metaphor land, right, he was told to leave that area. He was told that he will be the father of things. That's a whole lot of ripping away your past. It's ripping away your past. It's ripping away your foundations. It's ripping away your, the core of who you are, and every thread of your past in order to move forward. Right.

Javi: 14:58

Sure so far. So far we're in metaphor, land right.

Jason: 15:00

So now he is out in the wilderness, as we've seen many times, and he's got his, got his wife and his other son and they're still trying to figure out what's going on because they're in the wilderness. But now it's time for him to cut ties. Cut, Not a pun right, yeah, yeah.

Jason: 15:15

It's literally time for him to cut ties with his past and even be able to sacrifice his future, because everything needs to come out of him from obedience. Okay, you starting to see where I'm going with this? Yeah, so now obedience, and I mentioned in the beginning, when we started talking about this. I think that the relationship that we have with God is that we have to be more God-like in our lives and less us-like in our lives, and this is the beginning of that. He had to be able to cut ties with his family, his own child, his history, his past. This is the beginning of that. He had to be able to cut ties with his family, his own child, his history, his past. Yeah, this is the. This is the full circle. This is the beginning. As soon as this is over, everything good happened, right, like after the story, if I'm not wrong, everything for abraham goes better better right, nothing so dramatic happened.

Jason: 15:57

Am I wrong about that? You're looking I mean he lives well according again.

David: 16:00

according to jewish tradition, after the threat of killing Isaac when he comes down, this is the catalyst for Sarah's death. Okay, but, that's Jewish tradition or is that in the Bible? It's not directly in the Bible. I mean, obviously we know she died somewhere around then, sure, but yes it is. It's not the cause of it. But the Jewish tradition says that's the cause. But the cause is not in the Bible.

Jason: 16:28

What I'd also like to say too.

Jason: 16:29

I mean, I hate to put it this way, but eventually people die yeah yeah of course I don't know if it's the catalyst right, but I'll just finish this by saying like, I think that when we look at ourselves, we know that we have to, especially to be Christians or to be anything better than we are today. We have to be willing to cut ties with a lot of stuff in our past and to the extent that we have to do that is different, but for him it had to be. If he was going to be the father of religion, it had to be whole, it had to be total, it had to be complete.

Javi: 16:59

He couldn't bring in any of his old life. You brought up a good point.

Jason: 17:02

He can't bring any of his old life into it. If he's going to start something entirely new, Entirely new.

Javi: 17:07

He's the father, he's the patriarch right, he's the guy, and I love that you brought that up, because it's like this is like one of the ultimate sacrifices where God does it himself.

Jason: 17:21

Yeah, right. So if I'm going to, am.

Javi: 17:22

I need to test you out to see this is going to happen. I wanted to go back and what I said. As far as you know, I don't know if God is doing this now or not, but I just it bothers me to know if that's the case, right, if God is still making sacrifices in this kind of way. I just want to double down on what you said, jason, as far as obedience, and I feel like God and I think this is what I've learned in my walk is my life is not my life. Nobody else's life is my life, like what I'm trying to say is it's not. I need to let it go to God. Yeah, exactly, and I need to trust God that he's going to handle that. I don't have any children, you do you guys do, might.

Jason: 18:02

He might ask you to sacrifice your work. He might ask you to sacrifice your best. So many things not.

Javi: 18:07

I mean not, not so many things yeah, sacrifice, like I need to let him go and go. You're gonna handle that, god, and I'm gonna trust you with that and I, hopefully, I'm gonna pray that you bless that. Yeah, you lead them and they'd be able to follow you, and that goes for my, for my if I ever had children, for you guys with kids, you know, and and just like you said, work, and not only that, but my, but myself as well. He could have asked Abraham I'm going to sacrifice you, I want you to to sacrifice yourself for whatever it is.

Jason: 18:34

You know what I'm saying.

Javi: 18:35

Right and he did it for Jesus and that's why I brought and there was a lot of significance there why he would do it and there's a lot of, obviously, history of prophetic reasons why we would sacrifice his son but he did it there and why he would not do it to Abraham. We have to sacrifice ourselves and Jesus asks us to carry our own cross, and I think that's what we see here. We have to be willing to go. I'm going to let it go and give it to you, even my own life.

David: 19:04

I'm going to take a different approach just because Can I just say one thing real quick.

Jason: 19:06

It's also really important to note he didn't make him kill Isaac. That's true.

Javi: 19:12

That's true, yep. So you said you know, you said he continues to but you said that he continues to.

Jason: 19:16

you know, sacrifice people and these things. He never continued, he never sacrificed. Asks to sacrifice, which is important because the question isn't, it's never about the sacrifice, it's about the willingness to sacrifice, yes, not never, okay, but no so.

David: 19:31

So my, my approach is a little bit different. Is that's a good point? Actually, you know, we look at this as we're reading a story. I always say this when we read the bible we already know what happens, we know the ending right, but they didn't.

David: 19:39

Um, at this moment, uh, we're even assuming that abraham, you know. Hey, we know we know about Adam and Eve and stuff like that, but we don't. Adam and Eve was not written about until Moses wrote about Adam and Eve inspired by God later on. So let's just take this guy, abraham.

Jason: 19:53

I never thought of that. I never thought of that he didn't even have the backstory.

David: 19:56

No, and Jason, you said it, you hit right on the nail on the head. He's got a different backstory, a different culture he's grown up in. I think, god, what he's doing, he's teaching that I'm the god who's sovereign over life and death. Yeah, um, not just this god who's coming in and talking to you and giving you a child, because they had different gods that did different things. I'm the god of all gods, in charge of sovereignty and sovereign over life and death.

Jason: 20:18

Yes, um, and when you look at the gods back then, they were requiring quote unquote child sacrifice yeah so I think, that I was going to bring that up, but so pagans did at pagan gods at the dot at that time did ask for that.

David: 20:32

God brought in a substitute at the last second. So he's showing that this is not required for me. Yeah, but what is required? And again he's teaching them this because we know it, but they didn't at the time is what is required is a sacrifice for sin. Adam did sinned and I said if you sin, it will cause death. Yes, he chose not to kill them in the moment they live the rest of their life, but sacrifice became very important. There had to be a death a death.

Jason: 21:01

A death a Correct.

David: 21:05

So he is now teaching Abraham all of this First hand, in this very moment.

Javi: 21:10

Yes, Going back to the question of why maybe that's what it was the culture asked they were doing that they were sacrificing kids or children. And being that this is the culture, then God is asking I'm just kind of doubling down what you said, david just kind of like hey, I'm going to ask you to sacrifice your son, to see what you do and follow these other cultures. And then at the end, right in the end, he goes hey, no, that's not the way you do it. You do it through some kind of sacrifice.

David: 21:44

There is a requirement of sacrifice of sin. That that's what it is. Yeah, we, we demand a sacrifice of death through sin which would have been which.

Jason: 21:51

So this is what I was going to say earlier, right, and it's a little harsh to say, but like we also have to understand that every culture of the time, or almost every culture maybe that we know of, right, yes, did require sacrifice. Correct, and it was oftentimes children and virgins, I think, is what the concept or the, the need was. And so to realize a it was not such a crazy thing as it is to us, like to us that's a bonkers thing to even consider, but to them it was much more, it was much more yeah, it was much more normalized right.

Jason: 22:23

Yeah, that's not to say it was nice, wasn't to say that he was like oh cool, I get to do this right. But they, they understood it differently and that does it look. It does take a little bit of the sharpness off that blade.

Jason: 22:34

No pun intended at that time, no pun intended, uh, but it does take a little bit of sharpness off it when you realize that, like that's, this is also part of the reason why he was a bit more willing to do it absolutely right and he probably thought and and look guys, even if he didn't make sense, even if he didn't believe that he was going to come down with two, even if he didn't believe that god was going to resurrect him, he definitely believed that god was going to send him to a better place. Yeah, I mean right, and it's a hard. Can you imagine the hard? I mean let's, let's not get it.

Jason: 23:04

This is a whole other discussion. But like the life back then must have been the hardest of hard. Like you didn't have anything, it was fully non-technological, like you probably had, you know, famines, constant, constantly, no dental work. Like life was hard, hard, hard. It would have been a blessing to move into heaven quickly and efficiently. Right, like again, I'm not making it right, but I am saying like cultural context or hermeneutics of context might have not been the most horrible thing.

Jason: 23:31

So when somebody asks, why would God ask that? Look, we're offering a few answers. One is because maybe it wasn't that bad, maybe it was a bit of a prize, maybe, right, I don't know. I didn't live then but I'm throwing it out there. But I want to offer something even bigger than that. I want to offer that I. I would love to take credit for this, but I can't. But I happen to read this in cs lewis problem of pain, okay, recently, and what he says is essentially, if god would have asked you to do it and god knows all, god already knew he wasn't gonna. He wasn't gonna kill.

Javi: 24:03

Yeah right god. Yeah, going to kill, right God. Already knew that.

Jason: 24:05

So so the question of why he would have asked is because, uh, he already knew the answer, so he already knew it was going to be fine, right, so it's, it's just a question, it's not actually now, but more than that and better than that. You know who didn't know how they were going to Abraham? So the question wasn't for God, the question was for Abraham.

Javi: 24:26

Yeah, as always, it's the posture of the heart.

Jason: 24:27

It's the posture of the heart, and that's what he's trying to like yeah, and so this is Abraham's proof to himself at this point this is God testing?

Jason: 24:34

not for the sake of being like let's see what you're going to do here, but it was because Abraham needed to be pushed and to see that he could get through it, and I think we all have tests in our lives. Whether they're God driven or not. I don't know, honestly, but I do know that when you are able to get through something that you didn't think that you can get through, you are stronger in the end and you believe more in yourself in the end and you believe more in God's ability and grace to help you get through the end, which is what Abraham did. Abraham didn't do it on his own accord. Abraham trusted in God and that's why he did it.

David: 25:08

So I'll deepen it even further. And and this is why, um, we look at it as this is the faithfulness of Abraham. This is amazing. Yeah, Um again, Genesis 17, 19,. This is where the covenant passes from Abraham to Isaac. When you look at timing, when you look at the Midrash and the Talmud, they actually estimate Isaac being not a little boy, not a little child In his 40s or something, 37 years old.

Jason: 25:34

I thought so yeah, yeah.

David: 25:36

And the reason they estimate this is Sarah's death. She had him when he was 90. They believe that she died close to when he came down off the mountain and she died at 127 years old. Okay, um, so they're estimating his age to be 37. So now you're looking at this and you're going. God knew the answer, yes, but he wasn't only. See, listen, he already had the covenant with abraham. He wanted to see if this was going to extend to his son, isaac. Yeah, you're 37. Yeah, are you going to trust in me, right that you're going up this mountain? You're going to be sacrificed, you?

Jason: 26:08

got to carry your own wood. That's such a great addition. You have to lay down.

David: 26:11

You have to be tied up and are you going to trust me? Because he doesn't fight?

Jason: 26:15

He doesn't fight. No Right, he doesn't fight the whole time. This is one of those stories that is so beautiful and I hadn't even thought of that. I mean he didn't now granted. Next time isaac wanted him, or next time abraham wanted to go hunting, he he probably said, yeah, I'll, I'll stay here, I'll stay um, but it's such a beautiful story that he didn't fight back did he?

David: 26:33

no, he did not. And whether or not you believe he was an 8, 10, 12 year old boy, or whether you believe he's a 37 year old, right, it's still somebody who could have been like uh, what's going on?

Javi: 26:41

Why are you tying me up?

David: 26:43

There was no struggle here. It was also the faithfulness of Isaac, who had not seen God for 90 years. This is young faith, which he blesses well, he blesses obedience, he blesses faithfulness.

Javi: 26:58

He's another father of a patriarch of the faith. In a sense, he's the father of the you know, a patriarch of the faith. In a sense, you know right, he's the father of the twelve of the twelve different tribes, right?

David: 27:08

no, and this is. This is one of the other. Do you know? I never put that together.

Jason: 27:12

What he becomes the father of the twelve. Yeah, I don't know why, for some reason those stories separate in my brain.

Javi: 27:17

So the children came through through him. Pretty much. It passed well. They did. I mean right, yeah, I mean the, the, the, the, the multiplying of what is it? The? The father of many nations is through Isaac, yeah.

David: 27:28

Well, this is, this is the foreshadowing. So you have Isaac, who is the father of many nations. You have Isaac, who's deuteronomy one of the laws of wrapping tefillin um. So he's, he had a wrapping called agada, which is the way you wrap. You bind your arms um, which is also later on in deuteronomy, when you're taught how to wrap tefillin um, which is a jewish ceremony of binding yourself. Uh, this again, there's so many foreshadowing moments going through Isaac that, although this is another one of those stories where I say it might be about Abraham, but maybe it was really about Isaac, I mean it really is, though I mean, and I wonder if it's foreshadowing or if it's just the initiation of right, like there's.

Jason: 28:16

I think you can look at it both ways. You can look at it backwards and go that was the foreshadowing, or you can look at it forwards and go that's the first time we see it, and this is the importance of it and this. Don't they have a like uh, when you're reading scripture, there's like a law of first uh appearance, something like that, like law of first appearance, where the first time you see something, whatever context it's in, that's how you're supposed to read that word moving forward.

Javi: 28:37

That way you understand it Right.

Jason: 28:37

Yep. So this is, this is the first appearance of that Agada, and so it means to bind yourself in total faith, without questioning yes, even when actually he doesn't know he's going to die, right, he doesn't know, he might assume, but he doesn't know because he hasn't been given the request. He's just going along with where the world is taking him and where life is taking him. Where his father is taking him. Look at that him. And where life is taking where his father, where his father is taking him. Look at that. He's going along with where his father is taking him, truly, faithfully, obediently, and he ultimately becomes the father of the 12 nations.

Javi: 29:12

but if you're, if you're abram you're and uh that's wild being that age and being that many years of being faithful and just seeing god move in your life. Um, he did promise and remember this God promises always comes to fruition. Right, it always comes. It comes to life, right, if you're faithful. God said to Abraham, your offspring is really going to come through Isaac. That was a promise. That's in Genesis 21, 12. He said it's coming through Isaac. Boy, you're going to sacrifice my son Isaac. No, I'm going to trust you because-.

Jason: 29:46

Oh, he says that, he says that, it says that.

Javi: 29:48

Before he went up to the mountain. He says that. So, as Abraham being faithful and obedient, I'm trusting you. God, that says this to me, to Sarah, and I'm trusting you. I'm pretty sure Sarah and Abraham talked, but you know, he said so I pretty much he believes him. He goes I, I'm going to believe your promise.

Jason: 30:10

And I love one thing what a note, javi. What a note, yeah, yeah. So whatever, listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.

Javi: 30:25

So. So part of the reason he walked up that mountain Is because God had already told him Isaac was going to be safe. Yeah, that's it. Just trust me, my promise is always going to come to fruition. It might not be in your time, it might not be in the way that you want me to do it, but it's going to happen.

Jason: 30:34

So in Abraham's mind, God is telling him one thing and then he's telling him something contradictory. And God believes he just trusts Isaac is going to be the descendant bearer. But take him up on the top and sacrifice him, and he goes. You know what? You already told me one thing, so I'm going to believe. You didn't tell me he's going to die. You told me to take him up on the top Right.

Javi: 30:57

I don't know how it's going to happen.

Jason: 30:58

I don't know how, but I'm going to do it, and that is what we all know, right? We all know that God's asked me to do something and I have no idea what's going to happen, but I need to just do it.

David: 31:09

But he always provides and that's what I love about the mount. And he provides a cliche that we all use today the scapegoat. Yes, that's true, but isn't it a scape ram? Wasn't it a ram I think we all kind of? He identified as goat, yeah, Awesome, all right guys.

Jason: 31:24

This was enlightening, it was fun, it was enjoyable.

Javi: 31:29

We could talk about this forever by the way Like we just scratched the surface.

Jason: 31:32

Well, let's not forget, this is like 19 chapters or 19 verses, like it's a whole 19 verses. We were talking about this before we started. Like this is the beauty of God's word. There's 19 verses and because of all the surrounding information, you could, you could interpret and reinterpret and and find meaning, and find deeper meaning and find other meaning. Just so many, so many, so many times. And uh, you know, this is just what makes it enjoyable, guys. This is why we read the Bible. It's not so we can get through it, it's so we can learn from it.

Jason: 32:00

It's so we can get deeper into it, so we can understand how part A and part Z create part. You know why and it's just just such a blast, guys. So thank you for listening, as always, we appreciate your time, we appreciate your listens, we appreciate your likes, your comments, your shares, we uh reviews are especially appreciated on all the platforms you're listening on yes, and we hope to see you soon. Thanks for another one. Have a great week Later.