David: 0:02

Welcome to the Boundless Bible. My name is David Shapiro, hey, I'm Javi Marquez and I'm Jason Holloway.

David: 0:13

Welcome back everyone. Hey guys, how's it going? Doing well today. What's going on, dudes, I am really excited about today we're going to jump into the story of Job. A lot of people look at Job and they kind of remember him as a suffering guy and that's pretty much it. But we're going to dive a little bit further in today. We're going to explain it a little bit differently, but let me just kind of give a little background on who Job is and where this comes from.

David: 0:36

So Job is known. The book of Job is known as the oldest book actually written in the Bible. So this is is the oldest one. It's part of the wisdom literature. It's part of, uh, the books that people read to gain wisdom from, yeah, uh, god's word and and from the bible.

David: 0:54

Ultimately, um, this is somebody who probably takes place around 2000 bc. This is around the time of abraham. Yep, um, and there's some clues to that. So some of the clues to that um would be that uh, job actually references the, uh, the flood, and this is in job 22, 16. Uh, they were snatched away before their time. Their foundation was washed away by flood, um, so this is something that happens probably after the flood story, but there are no levitical laws, so it's probably before Moses. So a lot of scholars have it around 2000 BC.

David: 1:28

This is in a land that is not part of Israel and it is kind of what they dictate right now is modern southern Jordan in the land of Uz, and this is where this took place, which means probably Job wasn't even an Israelite. He's probably a Gentile. So that kind of lays the story of who Job is. We know from the beginning that he is a wealthy man. He has a lot of cattle, he has a lot of camels, he has a healthy family, he has a big home, he's got servants. And then Satan comes into God's court and kind of tempts him and says look, the only reason this guy really likes you and obeys you the way he does is because you've given him everything and he's got this great life and as soon as you take this away he's going to curse you. And then God allows him. And then we go into the story of Job and all the things that have happened to him throughout the story and what he does.

Javi: 2:25

So it's so interesting. Yeah, that court, that whole court scene is so interesting, Like God speaking to, what is Satan? Satan is it.

David: 2:34

The Satan, the accuser, the Satan the adversary right.

Javi: 2:37

It's so interesting to see that and I think there's a lot even there we could sit on and just kind of like break down and figure out.

Jason: 2:50

Yeah, I mean, I think the story is so fascinating and I think we have to start by talking about the historical versus the metaphorical right Like this is in the wisdom books, so it's not necessarily meant to be taken as historically true. Plus, I think anybody who was to say there was a catalog of God talking to Satan would already have a challenge in saying that this is a historical story. So, for me, I don't even try to go down the road and figure it out, I just I think this is a story that has so much meaning and it's so. It's like the world's first movie. It's so full of like emotion and so full of like character, depth and story and each person is very consistent with their own character and and that character development and their inter you know, intertwining in, their intercommunication is is where all this meaning is built and I just I love this story, yeah.

David: 3:37

I definitely agree that. I I believe that there's a ton of meaning in it. I actually happen to think and I'm not saying 100%, archaeologically they have not found, sure, uh, a man named joe, okay uh, but there is archaeological um kind of facts on the areas that he's talking about yeah yeah sure.

Javi: 3:54

So there, yeah sure again.

David: 3:55

This is one of those things where there is history within it. Does that mean this was a historical character? I don't know exactly, um, but this is a real place with real people with real problems. Yep, and this is mentioned two other times. Job is mentioned two other times in the Bible and I always think when somebody mentions him later on again, is that proof that he existed.

Javi: 4:15

Right, or is this?

David: 4:16

proof that they know the story of Job. Yeah, for sure, but there are people that feel as though this was a real person, he did exist and these are the things that he went through. But I definitely understand. Listen, there are some. There's some real challenges, uh, when you get into some of the story on whether or not this would have occurred the way.

Jason: 4:33

And don't get me wrong, I'm not. I'm not saying I don't think it's plausible that he was right. I'm just saying it's not. It's not a question I wrestle with. It's not something I have to wrestle with, because I know that, whether he was or wasn't, the meaning of this story is so intense and it's so deep and it's so. It's the, it's the story that keeps on giving, and every time you read it you get something more out of it. So it's 100.

David: 4:54

Why don't we talk more about it? Yeah, so for me, I will tell you that uh, job is not the most righteous person that they play him out to be. Now, I know he's righteous. I know that he does things as a priest would at the time, without Levitical laws. So he does make sacrifices for his kids, he does make sacrifices for his friends. He is living a life that is as righteous as he can be. But I think that we're looking at is this is somebody who, theologically, is doing everything right For sure.

David: 5:26

I don't think the relationship part is what he has with God. In the beginning it definitely builds through the story, but I think, if you look at the really beginning parts of the story, he's somebody who makes references to God in a way where he's very far away. Even the Lord took and gave away I mean, the Lord gave and took away Even a statement like that. It's not a personal relationship, it's just no, the God can do what he wants. He can give you, he can take it away. Then he says something along the lines in Job 3.11. Why did I not persist at birth, he's saying, why am I even here? He does not have this relationship with with god job 9, 11, 12, um this is when he passes me, I cannot see him.

David: 6:10

Yeah, um, and a lot of people look at it and they go well, these are laments of somebody who is tortured, or, if you look at it, he is not speaking to god. He's speaking about god almost the entire book of Job, right up until the end when he kind of loses it. And this is part where I go. Was he righteous theologically? Yes, and I look at people today and I go hey, theologically, man, they know a lot of the Bible. Yeah, does that mean they have a relationship with God? Not necessarily.

Jason: 6:38

You know? So this is the first point that really caught me, and so let's spend a little time on this right. Like, is he righteous? Yeah, yeah.

Jason: 6:45

To an extent right, like the relationship he doesn't have. We get that, but is he righteous? Yes, and ultimately, that's what he is able to hold on to throughout the story. No matter how much he complains, no matter how much he whines, no matter how much he laments, no matter how much he cries, no matter how much he's angry. He knows God to be just and righteous and because of that, he is able to hold on to the trust in God, based on his knowledge that he's been doing what he should have been doing.

Jason: 7:21

And I found this interesting because, look, there are multiple sides to a relationship with God, but one of them is that you know, if God is telling you to do these things, you need to, whether you understand them or not, whether you agree with them or not, whether you, whether you even know what the outcome is going to be. It's submission, it's about submission, and, and he did submit. And now he's at the point is going to be it's submission, it's about submission, and, and he did submit. And now he's at the point where he's quite he might be questioning that submission. He might be curious if that was the right way to go. I don't. He never actually says he's. You know he, he wishes he did things differently. He just says like I did all these things, I, and now you're, now you're betraying me, you know, and so, but he, he never curses God, he just he's, he doesn't understand it.

Javi: 8:09

See, for me I would disagree, david. I think for me he is righteous. The word says he is righteous. There's a reason why we even reading this they say blameless.

Jason: 8:18

The word blameless is used.

Javi: 8:20

Blameless, right or right. The reason why we're reading this is because de santan, you know, said hey, he is, he is righteous, he is good, he is blameless because he you've been given, you've given him all this life, right, you've given him the wealth, you've given him everything. So if we take that away, let's see if he continues to be blameless right, right.

Javi: 8:41

And then to me he is blameless. To me he is, and then to me he is blameless. To me he is righteous. He does have a relationship with God because he does make these sacrifices. And when it does, this stuff starts happening to him, which is where we see that after what the verses that you were talking about? This is after something happens to you, something happens to you like this, the first thing you're going to do is you probably freak out. You probably start cursing God. Right, but he didn't curse God. He's asking these questions what did you leave me? What's going on? Right, he seek God first during this trouble. That's how I feel. I don't.

David: 9:11

I don't believe he did see what happens, even the first sacrifices he makes. He's saying I'm making sacrifices for my kids in the event that maybe they did something against God. Yeah, he's not talking to the kids, he's not figuring out what they're doing, he's not having that conversation with him. He's going I'm just doing this as a tradition, I'm just going to do burnt offerings just because you might have, you might not have, but I'm going to do it. That's not relational. No, it blah, he didn't. What he starts saying is well, if God can give it, he can take it away, and this and that. And he's talking still about God very, very distant, even after all these things happen. Only after his friends, his wife and everybody tells him that he should curse God, does he finally get to the point where he's screaming out now to God and then has this amazing interaction with God.

Javi: 10:06

Yeah, um, this conflict with God he's not wrong for saying he, he's absolutely right, he's wrong yeah. God can't give it and take it away. I'm not saying he's wrong, I'm saying.

David: 10:15

what he's saying is all the right things that have nothing to do with relationship. So here's the thing I I.

Jason: 10:23

You're both right, and this is the point of the story. This is the point, right Like right. This is the point of the story that Job has everything. God has given him those things. He has been righteous, he has been faithful. Let's remember that faithfulness doesn't necessarily mean agreement, as you've said before. It means obedience, right. And so he's been obedient, he's done those things and now he's having a crisis, right, a crisis of in his life.

Jason: 10:50

God is not opaque, god is transparent. So he doesn't get to talk to god. In the beginning, god didn't come down and go hey, job, some stuff's gonna happen. Need you to work through this? Yeah, you know he doesn't get that because, guess what? None of us do. None of us get that. We all are living our high life, we're dealing with everything well, everything's going well, and then, all of a sudden, something. The bottom falls out. God doesn't come to us before and say I just want to let you know some bad stuff's coming. You better get ready. So the story is is one that is the most related, one of the most relatable in the Bible. I mean it's, for me it's one of the most relatable. I mean it's yeah. I mean I mean, look, he's going through everything good, everything's being well. He's, he's faithful, he's doing well, everything's going good. And then the bottom drops out.

Jason: 11:30

Hopefully my bottom never dropped out the way jobes does but you get the point, that's extremism to get the idea and then what does he?

Javi: 11:37

do? I mean? What happens to him is extreme right. It's like really exactly yeah so what?

Jason: 11:41

what would we all do in that situation? We're not going to go immediately. Go pray and go, god. I know this is for your wellbeing.

David: 11:47

Like no, we're going to go why am I alive?

Jason: 11:50

Why did you, why have you let me live so good, to fall so?

Javi: 11:57

hard, right, why he's questioning? David questioned the same thing, david King, david King David questioned the same thing right, when things were going wrong, when things were going bad.

David: 12:05

He's like where are you, where are you? God? Like what was going on. He's having a conversation with God Again. I'm not.

Javi: 12:09

Right, right, well it starts. I mean, relationship starts with conversation For me to go. So, for instance, something was to happen to me in my life. You know the first person I want to hear from her.

David: 12:29

I want her to counsel me. I want her to comfort me and that's the conversation that I'm-. And if your wife is taken from you, God forbid if your wife is taken from you and all your riches are taken from you, and your house is taken from you and everything that, and you're still going. Well, you know this God. He's doing this and he's doing that and he can do it and it's again. It's this separation of not my God. Why are you doing this, the way David calls out?

Javi: 12:46

I'll be honest for me when things go wrong or whatever it is. That's something that does comfort me in some ways, Meaning I try to take myself out of the situation and go. I have no control over this and I have to trust God. To me, that's faith. Right, I'm trusting God, whatever happened there, even though it feels horrible that he has it under control, or I will spiral out of control and go. Oh my god, you know this is killing me. God, where are you? And I probably will curse god but again this is I would.

Javi: 13:17

That's that helps me to take myself out and go.

Jason: 13:20

God, you got this this is the story, though, like the story is not a story of how you should act. It's about how we really do act and how we should be acting. Yeah, because the story starts with him cursing he again. He's not cursing God, but he's cursing himself. He's cursing his life and his existence at all.

Javi: 13:36

Right.

Jason: 13:37

Which is something that we all understand, whether it's the right thing to do or not. And you're right, david, that's going on in his life and he feels sorry for himself and he goes straight to the bottom of that hole, which is something we've all done. And then he goes to his friends and then he lets his friends counsel him and his friends again, his friends aren't God. This is the story. It's first go to yourself, then go to your friends. Your friends don't know, and I love this, like inner turmoil and external turmoil. That happens to the entire book. It's me first, and then you're talking to me and then I'm telling you you're wrong. Yeah, and they are wrong a lot of times. Honestly. I mean, that's the thing that's interesting about those you know guys that come is they're also wrong, because we know from the beginning that that's not why this happened. His friends continue if you haven't read the book his friends continue to in some way insinuate that he has done sin, that he is blamed, he is at blame. Yeah, what I hear, yeah, go ahead. And at the end of the story is the more he fights and fights, and fights. Then this new guy, Elihu, comes in, the younger guy in the crowd and he tries to lay some thoughts on top of it which, again, are not entirely right, but they have a little bit more sense and they do sharpen that vision of what they're trying to say.

Jason: 14:53

At the end is the first time. Actually, right in the middle sorry, right in the middle Job tries to bargain with God. Again, who hasn't tried to bargain with God in the middle? It's like, if I can't hear you, if I can't see you, if you're not answering me, take me to court. Let me prove my case Again. That's not the way God works. But he keeps doing that. It's not until the very end when he submits. It's not until the very end when he submits and he calls out to God and he asks God for God's will to be done, that it gets fixed. So again, I'm not saying he's right or wrong, I just want to go through this process of like. That's why I love this book. To me, the book if I could zoom out

Javi: 15:31

and just kind of like per his eye view. And I'm thinking about this because you're saying this. It's a question we all have right. When bad things happen, when things go wrong, whose fault is that? Is it mine for doing it? Is it mine for thinking about it? Is it mine for doing it? Is it mine for thinking about it? Is it mine for not taking care of it? Was it god? And you know, is it? But then, wait, is god wrong? Is he this, this, this? You know, little boy on an anthill, you know, kind of yeah, you know is he this evil god?

Javi: 15:57

and we did an episode on that about. Is god evil, right, or is he just right? Is he a just god? And this is what just happens in the world and I think we see that play out through several books. I think Ecclesiastes talks about a little bit about this and things being worthless right or meaningless right, and we see that throughout Job. Right, Just kind of figure out, is God this just God? That's what his friends are saying. Right, he's just God. So it must have been you.

Jason: 16:23

Job that did something wrong. It's what does justice mean?

Javi: 16:25

at some point, right, that becomes the central question, which is funny too, because right there also, it seems like this courtroom right With Satan, so it's like it's God is judged on, you know, on this hill, and just kind of like judging everybody, whatever's in this court, sorry. And as we play out throughout the end, god speaks to Job and he talks about that and goes were you there in the beginning? Were you here? Whatever it is, these things happen because they happen, but I still am just. I still am this God, and I see that I'm paraphrasing.

David: 16:54

But I also. You know there's so many different layers and I think this is why probably Jason, you said that when you look at the friends and you, you know again. We quickly curse the friends and go. They're so wrong for blaming him. You're going to do all these things, but what you also don't read in the story is Job actually does this to other people that come to him when they're suffering. He says this and they go you don't understand what.

David: 17:15

I'm going through, because you've never gone through this type of stuff and you start to see that people usually have like-minded people around them, and so when you hear their opinions, this is also reflecting the opinion of Job, and he needs to now go through all this to have a different opinion, and that's why I said the relationship part is what he starts to build with God going. You know what? I haven't been through something like this. I am going through this right now. I do hear what my advice used to be, how worthless it is because it's not helping. I mean, man, there's so many layers to unpack here.

Jason: 17:47

Look how important it is, then, under that statement, that the whole book begins with God and Satan having a discussion. Why is that important? Because, from the very beginning, they lay it out very clearly that none of what is about to happen is happening because of blame. Right, none of it. None of what's going to happen is because of blame. None of what's going to happen is because of blame. None of what's going to happen is because of fault. None of what is going to happen is because of divine retribution.

Jason: 18:13

What's going to happen is because it's going to happen Because chaos exists in the universe. Why is it going to happen? Because justness doesn't mean rightness Sorry, let me say it differently Justice doesn't mean happiness. Because action doesn't always reflect reaction. Reaction or reaction doesn't always reflect action, because that's just the way our world works. We talked about that in our other episode.

Jason: 18:35

The reality is that the world is the world and it's going to move the way it moves and it's going to happen the way it happens, whether that's God making it happen or the devil making it happen, or just the fact that God created an earth that moves, shifts, shakes changes. And we live in that world that moves, shifts, shakes changes. We're going to have to deal with the consequences of the earth being the earth, and so I love the fact. Again, I'm going to go back to the very, very beginning. That sets the story up. With this context, everything you are about to read is just the way the world works, and how you react is going to be how you, how you process it right, how you navigate it, how you process it.

Jason: 19:12

So everything else from there is then, which is why I love that Job starts up by doing what we all do. God, you hate me, right? Why did you do this to me? And immediately, you know he didn't. So look, look what the human did. The human went and made it about themselves. The human immediately made it about themselves. What did I do? I tried so hard I did, I wasn't able to make it happen. You don't like me. I don't understand you. And yet, not only is it true, but it's also something again, we all know when have you not, when have you wanted you don't send an email to God and he sends you an answer back. That's just not the way that works, and this is a story of that. This is a story of how to navigate your life with faith. With faith despite the fact that you feel like the whole universe is falling apart.

Javi: 20:04

And I hear you on that and I think, and I think I get that from the story, but sometimes it's tough. I'm speaking for maybe for generally.

Javi: 20:12

I'm speaking for other people here, including myself. It's when you see the scripture says God is speaking to say and he goes, go ahead. You do that. And it's just like is that the way he's orchestrating things? He's just testing us out, kind of thing. And it's just tough to hear that, it's tough to read, that, I think, and I I just want to throw out there I mean not not to go into a big discussion- it's very tough.

Jason: 20:36

I have something to tell you.

David: 20:37

Yeah, I mean yeah let's go through that, because that's an important part. Anybody who's written, who's read this story kind of goes. Why would God allow that? Why would he entertain this? Right, and what you don't realize is that even in this moment, when, yes, the world is chaos and he's just allowing chaos to happen, god is still being protective. So when you point at God and go, god, why would you do this? You go wait a minute, let's look what God also did. He said first you will not do this to him, don't harm him, you can't do this. But then, on top of that, something that that a finer point is.

David: 21:12

And and this is I'm just going to compare it with if there is a, a company that has to do a mass firing, okay, and they fire somebody, two people every week for the next two years, what happens? Everybody works anxious. When's it going to be my turn and my I next week, am I next week? And it builds, and it builds and it becomes the most miserable place in the world. But if they do all of the firings on one day and then it's done and you're still there, what happens? The anxiety comes down and you go whew, I survived that, right, and you can actually breathe again.

Javi: 21:43

If you notice, god has all of these horrible things happening the same day he did, he did all at once, so it is and we look at it and go this is so brutal for Job.

David: 21:52

No, no, what he's doing is protecting him going. I'm going to have all this happen on one day. Here, you lost everything. Deal with it. How are you going to deal with it? Are you going to deal with it faithfully? Versus let me pluck something from you every single day or every single week and drive you mentally insane from it. Yeah, even that shows protection that God's using on him that we don't even think about.

Javi: 22:12

I never thought about that, yeah.

David: 22:13

Never thought about that.

Javi: 22:14

Yeah, it's a. It's a little bit of humanity right or not.

Jason: 22:17

Humanity, uh, it's humane. It's a more humane way to do literality on it, because I think it's too complicated to understand. But I think what the God and the devil talk, or God and Satan speaking to one another, is for me in my taking a step back and trying to just process the meaning of it, is… trying to like mythologically form what it means to say life happened, life happened. You know bad stuff is going to happen and you're not always going to understand it, and and again. I think that's what this story is about. It's not. It's not about understanding.

Jason: 22:59

Another thing I want to bring up, though, is you know we give Job all this. You know hard time for all of his whining and complaining and upsetness, but there are some really beautiful lines in this where you can tell he loves God. I mean, one of them is Job 14, 13. If only you would hide me in Sheol and conceal me until your anger passes. If only you would appoint at a time for me and then remember me when a person dies, will he come back to life? If so, I would wait all the days of my struggle until my relief comes. You would call and I will answer you. You will long for the hard work of your hands, for then you would count my steps but would not take note of my sin. My rebellion would be sealed up in a bag and you would cover over my iniquity.

Jason: 23:41

I just love that he's already seeing into the future of being in heaven and what it would be like, and that he just wants to walk beside God and be with God and be connected to God. He's, he's begging and this is right in the middle of the third of the way through the book. He's already begging for that relationship that you've been talking about, and I think it's just such a beautiful line to talk about that again. He's, he's. He's so human, he's so human, he's struggling, he's fighting, he's fussing. But in between all those lines, there's always these little like nuggets that you're like man. In between all those lines, there's always these little like nuggets that you're like man. That's a guy who loved God, like that's a guy who loved him.

David: 24:10

There is, uh, you know this is actually written in a format of Jewish poetry Uh, and, and I know we didn't mention that, but there are quite a few scholars, non-biblical scholars that feel like this work, this, this poem, is the absolute best ever written ever in the history of time, and these are people who don't believe in the bible, who just look at the, the incredible language like we just read, yeah, and it's just filled with visuals and emotion and everything you want out of.

Jason: 24:39

it's so rich and it is literally every line of job, of the, of the discussion, part of the jobs. I mean it's a beautiful book. I mean, if you appreciate, you know, you know, uh, you know noir type topics, it's perfect, cause he's so dark, like there's some like really deep hyperbole and like really intense metaphor, like it's a. It's a really beautiful book too, but, um, I guess I I'll tell you. There's two other things that I want to talk about, but one of them is that I really think that it's important to note.

Jason: 25:11

This is about justice, you know. I mean, it's like what does divine justice mean? Divine justice isn't what we conceive of, it's what God conceives of, and it's said throughout the book. You know, does my righteousness mean anything to you? Does me being good or bad do anything for God? Does it matter at all? And it's not until the very end of the book that he says you know what? I just don't know? And God says again. God says to him were you there? Were you there in the beginning? It's the understanding. It's that separation of God versus human. We are so finite and so small and he is so big. We can sit here and whine all we want, but we're just not going to understand it. We just have to trust. That is what faith is. Keep moving forward, believing that God knows better than we do which he does.

Javi: 26:00

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think there's, as we see, you know, through time is that God loves us, right, and he wants a relationship with us. But what we do is not really for him, it's for us, for us to shape us in that way. And they, you know, in Job 35, six through eight, elihu says if you sin, how does that affect them? If your sins are many, what does that do to him? If you're righteous, what does that have to do with him? Or what does this does he receive from your hand? Your wickedness only affects humans like yourself and your righteousness only other people, and I think that's holds true. Uh, when we look at it, when I look at, god is just really trying to shape us.

Javi: 26:44

Prayer is one of those things. Right, prayer is not as much as for me I mean for God as it is for me. It shows a humility, it shows a reverence to God. When we do those things and God is going to continue to be God he's not affected in any kind of way. He's hurt. Sure, he loves us. He wants us to not sin and not do certain things, but really what he wants from us is to be good and do good to others. There's this relationship, part of humans on humans, like really paying attention to your human being, attention to your neighbor, to your family, to other humans, and be good to them, to learn how to lift them up and be good to them. You know what I'm saying. So that's what I always get throughout the Bible and I love that about God because I find that true in my life. I'm more happy in my life when I have good humans around me and that that I love and that really lifts me up and I want to lift them up.

Jason: 27:36

I love what you said about prayer is not for God, it's for us.

Javi: 27:38

Yeah.

Jason: 27:39

Right. I think that's such an important majority of this book, because he doesn't do one very simple thing he doesn't reach out to God. He doesn't reach out to God and he follows his own instinct. He follows his own flesh. He feels sorry for his own existence, instead of doing what we all need to do in that moment, which is to submit, to acknowledge that there is a power in this universe that is far greater than us. That it's not for our understanding, it is for our benefit, and I think that's what prayer does for us. Prayer reminds us that there's inner dialogue and there's prayer. Right, they both happen inside your head, but one of them is me talking to me. The other one's me talking to God, and when I talk to me, that ain't good. There's a lot of bad, in fact. That's that's when conversations spiral, because me talking to me is like a whirlwind of it's, like a Tasmanian devil that's just driving itself straight to the pit of hell. When I talk to God, I shoot straight up in the sky. And this is it right.

Javi: 28:53

It's the well of wisdom, right it's the well of wisdom. Your well of wisdom is shallow, right, no offense to you, but for us humans it's shallow, but God's well. I'm offended, but yes.

David: 29:04

No, I love you. You know, one of the things that humans in general do, love is struggle. It's one of the reasons why this book is so great to read. We love struggle, and anybody who says no, no, I want everything to be smooth, I'm going. You know, let's you're the one who's also rubbernecking where there's an accident, right, right, we enjoy struggle, and what's happening through this book is there's this incredible, beautiful, poetic struggle that's happening.

David: 29:26

it's a struggle that that starts with Satan and God and it ends with Job and his faith. But when you look at the very last verse verses, if you look at the very last chapter, so chapter 42, this is when Job finally gets it and this is what I said, where the relationship part finally clicks in and he says he says Job answers the Lord and said I know that you can do all things and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. And he goes on and on, and he goes hear and I will speak, I will question you and I will make it known to me. I had heard you, but by hearing of the ear, but now my eyes see you. Therefore, I despise myself and I repent in dust and ashes. Love it.

David: 30:05

He is basically just coming out and saying I get it, I. I. I thought I was with you and I realized that I was not. I was trying to understand everything you do. I can't. I can't understand the divine justice. I can't. I know that what your plans are are your plans, and all I can do is just pray to you, have a relationship with you and apologize, repent for my mistake, which is I did turn on you. Listen, there was a point where he did turn on God by questioning him.

Jason: 30:33

Yeah, Guys, I have a weird thought. So we started this whole thing out by saying why would God allow this to happen? Yeah, right, yeah, look at what happens at the end. Yeah, it's better for Job. Job learns. Job has spent his whole life being what he thought was close to God, but he wasn't close to God, god loves me because he blessed me.

Javi: 30:51

Look what I have. He thought he loved him for those reasons.

Jason: 30:55

The devil comes along and goes. He's not going to love you after this.

Javi: 30:57

And why did God say, yes, that's the question we asked earlier why did God say yes?

Jason: 31:06

Because he knew at the end Job was going to be better off. Yeah, oh, okay, whoa dude, that like freaked me out.

Javi: 31:08

That's crazy.

Jason: 31:10

Because that's what this whole, again the story is so rich and robust. So when the question of why, guys, I literally have chills Like why would God let some terrible things happen like that, it's because he knew it was going to work out for his betterment. And so now Job not only has a superficial relationship with him, with with god through the tradition, he now has a real relationship with him through personal.

David: 31:34

Yeah, and man, that's intense, yeah and then is restored back to exactly.

Jason: 31:40

So now that he has back. I mean to be fair.

David: 31:43

He didn't get his family back no, he well, he got a, he got another family back that he's he's happy with um which? Is crazy but yes, he does he, he has this, he at the end gets a personal relationship, gets his things quote unquote back, um, he is restored. He is restored but only after having to go through it, which is the other thing.

Jason: 32:03

I was having that relationship, man this one's gonna hit me hard for a while, because that's I mean, I've never considered that that's. Everybody's always asked the question why would God allow that to happen? Right, because it ends up in his favor. That's why, and what? And so what does that part of the story tell you alone? That part of the story tells you suffering breeds growth. You know, tragedy breeds sharpening.

Javi: 32:30

If reads sharpening, if you allow it to, if you turn to God. Yeah, I think about I've heard of like the way they make metal, or the way you kind of like Silver yeah, silver right it has to go through the furnace. It has to go through this like shaping process.

Jason: 32:36

Well Job even says in fact Job, I think it's. Job 23,. Says something like I will go through your trials and I will come out as gold. You know, so even that part of the story, it's a reminder for anybody out there who's going through something. You may be angry at God, you may be questioning God, you may not understand why this is happening to you, but if you turn your trust to God, if you turn your connection to God and you're personally related to God, he's going to use it for good.

Javi: 33:04

Is that?

Jason: 33:05

Roman 28?

Javi: 33:05

And I can say this Satan puts those lies in our, in us. Right, he wants us to go. Hey, you're not going to love God after this happens to you. Hey, how can you love God after that happened to your son? You shouldn't love him and they you know. And just to really try to psych us out, and we have to even further, when these things happen, not trying to understand it, we can't leave in our, we cannot lean in our own understanding, and Proverbs says, but lean on God's understanding and through that we'll find peace, we'll find hope, and he helped us through it. We know the things that happen. Tragic happens to us all the time and we want to just you know, we want to fight against the things that happen. You know the people that do it to us and we must understand that. Maybe it's a shaping process. Maybe we'll come out better than that and get another family and get more stock.

Jason: 33:56

Get more livestock. Get more livestock.

Javi: 33:58

Yeah, I could use some. No, nowadays stocks yeah, I could use some. You're getting talk of real stock. I want real stock.

Jason: 34:03

I want live stocks, yeah.

David: 34:05

The other little thing I'm just going to end on this with, with kind of what, where my brain goes in this book is um, you know, we always look at pastors and priests uh, to to intercede for us. Even even when we know, hey, I have this relation with God, we still go over to a pastor and go, hey, can you pray for in that, and it definitely has importance. But I always look at this, I go don't forget that you can also pray for others in your circle. And at the very end, god is mad at his friends and says I'm only accepting you by the prayer of Job. So Job prays for them, prays for them, yeah, and God accepts it for his prayer, not theirs. They could have gone. He was like, no, I'm going to accept it because job is praying for you.

David: 34:48

And I look at that, I go. You know, it's a reminder that we should all pray for each other as well. There's a time where don't wait, don't, don't just pray for yourself, pray for others as well. Yeah, go to your friends, learn what's going on, have a relationship with them as well. But you were talking about javi, the person on a personal relationship, and, and you don't realize the importance of that until you go. God only accepted the forgiveness because somebody else prayed for it. I'm going, man, I want to surround myself with everybody.

Javi: 35:14

I'm going to pray for everybody. There's something that happens there too. When you pray for other people, there's something that shapes you. I think I heard recently on a different podcast and the guy said there's something about giving a gift rather than receiving it right. Like when you give a nice gift that you know someone is really going to love or they do love it, that does something to you for doing it. And when you pray for someone and you hope in the best for them, or you hope that God intercedes for them in their life the way God has, maybe in you there's something that shapes you as a human, as your life or maybe a relationship with that person is something that you get out of it.

Jason: 35:50

Um and I'm not saying you do it to get something out of it, but there's something that's rewarding yeah, not to be, uh, mr negative, but the other thing to pay attention to here is that he surrounded himself by people who were wrong. And you know, true, it's an important note that you got to be careful who you surround yourself with, because if you're surrounding yourself with the wrong people, they're going to condemn you when things go bad.

David: 36:13

Or, and I love to flip it, what if you're that negative person? What if you're the negative person? Somebody surrounded themselves with you. A hundred percent.

Jason: 36:19

And at this case and I'll leave my discussion of Job at an end here, but you know, I think the thing is the friends were wrong and the thing that I really respected about Job on this last reading is that Job was confident in his own faith. Like he had problems, he had issues, but he never gave up. Nope, he never. You know what's worse than talking badly to God, not talking to God at all? Yeah, that's the challenge, right, and he never did that. He might have been cursing him.

Javi: 36:48

He might have been angry with him. Well, he, he might have been cursing him. He might have been angry with him, he didn't curse him.

Jason: 36:51

You know he might have been angry with him, right right, he might have been, uh, you know, deeply upset with what he was saying to him, but he never stopped talking to him. He never said you know what, screw these rules. Yeah, I'm gonna go do what I want now. If you're gonna, if you're gonna, mess with me, no matter what, I'm just gonna go do me. But and this is what humans today do, this is what everybody does today Like, if you're not going to give me what I want, I'm out of here. And he didn't ever do that and I really respected that. This read around.

Javi: 37:17

If we don't build our foundation of God and really build that and relationship with him, we could easily be, you know, led astray Totally, totally, and that's what Satan does. He wants to put these lies and then go back to what I said before and I don't want to repeat it, but there is that that happens and I think you brought a good point. It's true, he has a foundation within God, he knows God is good, he knows God has blessed him and his friends are going no, you did something wrong, you should. What are you doing? And he's like no, no, no, I know my god, yeah, I know my god, and he's just there's something more he's gotta understand my god, right, yeah, yeah.

David: 37:53

Yeah, I don't understand it right now, but I know him right, yeah, yeah and it's, it's something beautiful, like you said, jason, yeah, I thought that was cool and and to not forget that, you know, we read a story and obviously the story is filled with drama, yeah, and it's filled with negative circumstances and things like that. And it's easy to look at it and go, yeah, that's what's happened to me or that's what I've gone through, or whatever it is. And you start to feel that Job lived 140 years is what it says in Job. He lived 140 years. And you start to go, well, how long did this last? Because all of these tragedies, things, and honestly you go you lived 140 years. You had this wonderful life up until that point. You lost it and then god did restore it. It might not have been the same.

David: 38:39

There might have been some you know some lasting effects from from the first thing you lost, yeah, but you know, out of 140 years if you go. I don't know how long this lasted, did it last a month, a year, I don't know but out of 140 years. Sometimes we look at at God and we curse him for the negative that we're going through and we're going, man, you know, I know I've been around those people. I've been that person where I'm just negative and negative, and negative and negative, and then one day I get annoyed with myself. I'm going what am I so negative about? I have a lot to be thankful for. That's good. And I think out of 140 years you go, man, there's a lot to be thankful for and it could be.

Javi: 39:09

Whatever pain and affliction that you're going through. It could be temporary and that's what it was right.

Jason: 39:15

I mean it always is, that's another small little key message right, but I mean, it's always temporary and God makes sure God's timing and our timing not the same To us. That week that we're going through it, that month we're going through, that six months we're going through it is forever. For God it's a split second, right? So, guys, this has been one of the most rousing discussions we've had in a while. Maybe we recap a little bit. Look, job is a fascinating story. It is. That is potentially historical, but definitely so full of meaning.

Jason: 39:48

I would, I think we would all highly suggest that everybody sit down with this book, read through it, figure out where you sit in it. Where do you sit today? Where have you sat in your past? You know identify, you know. Do you? Do you identify with Job? Do you feel like he did the right thing or did he go about it all wrong? You know there's so much in this story. There's there. We'd love to talk to you about it.

Jason: 40:08

Uh, if anybody has anything that you'd like to, you know, add to this conversation, we have the uh boundless bible discussion group. Uh, you can email us. Um, in our podcast actually, there's a text text message link too. You can text this uh with questions. So we'd love to hear those questions and keep these conversations going, because job is the book that keeps on giving. Yeah, um. So what we do know is that Job is very clear that if you follow God, if you are faithful to God, god is not going to let you down. God is going to be by your side. God is going to, and even though you don't understand what's going on in your life right now, god does, and when you submit to his knowledge of it, that temporary thing you're going through is going to pass and he's going to find a way to use it for good.

Javi: 40:54

Yeah, I love it.

Jason: 40:55

So I hope this has at least shown somebody out there that this is the case. But again, if you need anybody to talk to, you want anybody to talk to, we're all available, so let us know. Yeah, so, guys, we're wrapping right. Thank you appreciate it, guys. We'll see you on the socials, we'll see you in emails and we look forward to talking to you next week. Thanks a lot, see ya.